Exploring Anti-Americanism
POSTED BY: Khyron
UPDATED: Monday, April 30, 2007 03:01
VIEWED: 18266
PAGE 19 of 23
Quote:I don’t use that kind of language when speaking about the French, and I don’t condone it. I’m a little sick of haters like you accusing me of doing what I don’t do, because you decided that since you found a few Americans who aren’t completely perfect and angelic, that means I’m an asshole for being an American. Well, you can take your bigoted bullshit and shove it in your ear, Siggy. You're, evidently, no different then that woman I spoke with in London.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Okay then, how about "cheese-eating surrender monkeys", George Will's comment on retreat as "an exercise for which France has often refined its savoir-faire since 1870", "Iraq first, France next!", and "First Iraq, then Chirac!". The fact that you don't acknowledge our strong anti-French sentiment is intellectually dishonest at best, and yet another example why people hate Americans: our rather strong aversion to honest self-examination. Or maybe I should just call it what it is: hypocracy.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Manuel Antonio Noriega Moreno (born February 11, 1938) is a Panamanian general, and was the de facto leader and military dictator of Panama from 1983 to 1989, despite never being the official President of Panama. He was initially a strong ally of the United States and worked for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) from the late 1950s to 1986 . By the late 1980s, relations had turned extremely tense between Noriega and the United States government, and in 1989 the general was overthrown and captured in the United States invasion of Panama....
In October 1984, Noriega allowed the first presidential elections in 16 years. When the initial results showed former president Arnulfo Arias on his way to a landslide victory, Noriega halted the count. After brazenly manipulating the results, the government announced that the PRD's candidate, Nicolás Ardito Barletta, had won by a slim margin of 1,713 votes. Independent estimates suggested that Arias would have won by as many as 50,000 votes had the election been conducted fairly. Barletta, who later became known as "Fraudito", was a former student of United States Secretary of State George Schultz at the University of Chicago, home of the Chicago Boys (los muchachos de Chicago)...
Díaz Herrera, a former member of Noriega's inner circle, told Panama's main opposition newspaper, La Prensa, that Noriega was behind Spadafora's murder and many other killings as well. Nonetheless, he retained U.S. support until February 5, 1988...
The U.S. imposed harsh economic sanctions, and in the months that followed; a tense standoff went on between the U.S. military forces (stationed in the canal area) and Noriega's troops. The U.S. forces conducted regular maneuvers and operations, which some feel were a violation of the Panama Canal Treaty.[citation needed] On the other hand, Noriega's forces engaged in routine harassment of U.S. troops and civilians. On December 15, 1989, the PRD-dominated legislature declared war on the United States...
In response, U.S. President George H.W. Bush launched an invasion of Panama, though this military action had obviously been planned out months in advance. This move was thought by some critics to be ironic since, during his tenure as Director of the CIA, Bush had personally arranged annual payments to Noriega in the initial amount of $110,000
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Noriega
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:Okay, dumb word choice on my part...I think the main place we don't see eye-to-eye here is that a level of internal conflict of intrest and/or downright corruption will be a part of every major military decision from the top...and the difficulties associated with achieving the percieved objective that have to be overcome ("We go with the army we have...") are both givens to you (Am I right- don't wanna put words in your mouth), while I am infuriated that this is all played like some grand poker game, loaded with cards up the sleeve, and a hogleg in the boot just in case.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Invasions never end up rosy, Chris. That’s not my point.
It may just be a case of you being the realist, and me being the naieve one...I have to think more on this....
Not always right Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Because all those guns, tanks, missiles, shells, bombs, planes, and ships aren't exactly candy-stores. And since we're talking about how people- not governments or militaries- respond to our presence, my contention is that it's impossible for a population to ignore the fact that it may have several hundred thousand hostile troops near its border, all chock-o-block full or weaponry, no matter that we say its a forward defensive posture.
Aside from Iraq and Afghanistan, there are about 180,000 civilian and uniformed military employees outside the US, so "several hundred thousand" is pretty much impossible. I'd also question the use of the word "hostile". Are we planning on taking over Germany, Japan, South Korea, Belgium, England, Kuwait, etc.? We're generally there due to treaty obligations.
Quote:
about half of the people in the USA are functionally illiterate. (I noticed that many English-speaking nations have literacy problems. It may be the difficulty of English spelling.) and we're way behind in science and math.
Most of us, however, know to capitalize the first word in a sentence.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:Yeah, he was our boy...until he wasn't.
Originally posted by SignyM:
This move was thought by some critics to be ironic since, during his tenure as Director of the CIA, Bush had personally arranged annual payments to Noriega in the initial amount of $110,000
But could this all be a game that MUST be played?
Just askin', not turnin' to the Dark Side or anything...
Really, is it even possible to always do the right thing in a world this complicated?
Posing the question Chrisisall
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Quote:Um... as I recall (and you do not) I posited that Venzuela, Cuba, and Brazil were willing allies of the Chinese. Since you're misleading the discussion, let me also specify that we're not willing allies of the Chinese. Now, having re-stated the scenario to bring it back to where I started, would most Americans not consider being ringed by Chinese forces with some alarm?
Not if the Chinese were helping protect us from the Venezualans. It really does depend on the frame of reference.
Quote:I'm actually trying to place this in context, but as per your previous example you seem to be avoiding it.
Where did I say that? I said that opinion should be based on the situation, not just "Oh, gosh, there's troops overseas, aren't we evil?
Quote:There were many more invasions than what occurred in WWII. But if you narrow your vision to exclude the ones that you're less comfortable with, then of course you'll never understand what people might be responding to because you refuse to look. Defensiveness and self-justification inhibit understanding.
So the invasion of France in WWII was a bad thing? Frame of reference, SignyM.
Quote:No, I was thinking of Cuba, I just hadn't read the thread far back enough to see Khyron's post. But I have to say Geezer that if you're feeling it necessary to take cheap shots then you must be feeling uncomfortable.
You got nothin', huh? Khyron came up with Cuba in a few minutes. Sorry, if you can't defend your own assertions, I'm sure not going to do it for you.
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:Well, I wouldn’t use the word naïve, I would use the word idealist, if possible. And yes, it is likely that we aren’t going to see eye-to-eye on all of this, but that’s allowed. I’m of the mind to believe that you need both the realists and the idealists to form a complete strategic picture. Sometimes there is a 38th parallel that you don’t want to cross, and people like me sometimes need reminding of that.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
It may just be a case of you being the realist, and me being the naieve one...I have to think more on this....
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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FINN: Let's say that we both agree that generically name-calling other nationalities is a bad thing and get to the substance of the discusison, which is whether or not other peoples are justified in hating or being afraid of America.
I had listed a number of USA invasions of other nations, outside of the context of WWI, WWII,and Korea. I could come up with probbaly tne times that number of the instances in which the USA provided troops, agents, and funding to depose democratically-elected governments. Perhaps we should look at one or two of thsoe in detail, and then you can tell me how it was justified.
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Okay then, how about "cheese-eating surrender monkeys", George Will's comment on retreat as "an exercise for which France has often refined its savoir-faire since 1870", "Iraq first, France next!", and "First Iraq, then Chirac!".
SignyM. Even the French don't like the French.
Quote:
PARIS (Reuters) - The French dislike themselves even more than the Americans dislike them, according to an opinion poll published on Friday.
The survey of six nations, carried out for the International Herald Tribune daily and France 24 TV station, said 44 percent of French people thought badly of themselves against 38 percent of U.S. respondents who had a negative view of the French.
Only 14 percent of Germans, 25 percent of Italians, 29 percent of Spaniards and 33 percent of Britons had a negative view of the French, according to the Harris/Novatris poll, which questioned more than 1,000 people in each country.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKL2626428720070427
And if only 38% of Americans have a negative view of France, we don't all, or even mostly, hate them, do we? Sorry to bust your bubble of hatred. (Not really)
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:I’m sure you would enjoy that since cherry-picking the details and hiding behind spurious arguments of policy is how anti-Americanism is justified, and in reality how all forms of bigotry are justified. But disagreeing with a specific American action, individual or policy is not anti-Americanism. I disagree with many specific American actions, individuals and policies. No matter how much someone disagrees with certain American actions, a fair minded person would probably find many America actions that they agreed with. So you’re proposal doesn’t serve the debate at all.
Originally posted by SignyM:
I had listed a number of USA invasions of other nations, outside of the context of WWI, WWII,and Korea. I could come up with probbaly tne times that number of the instances in which the USA provided troops, agents, and funding to depose democratically-elected governments. Perhaps we should look at one or two of thsoe in detail, and then you can tell me how it was justified.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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