Exploring Anti-Americanism

POSTED BY: Khyron
UPDATED: Monday, April 30, 2007 03:01
VIEWED: 18266
PAGE 11 of 23

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Originally posted by rue:
Geezer,

"the US, '...has an essentially sociopathic economy/culture.'" That argument has been made by sociologists, anthropologists and economists. I can't take credit for it.

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Don't necessarily disagree with you, but for credibility's sake, it would be helpful if you summarized studies, included links, or at least referenced authors. That way I could actually agree or disagree intelligently.

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I would love to. I spent a fair bit of time trying to get a few articles to link, but since I only half-remember the titles, I've gotten nowhere, fast. Anyway, I gotta go do some child-minding. Maybe tomorrow.

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Originally posted by clarkent913:
But, you're right. Afghanistan seems to drop out of view, when people demonstrate or just disagree with the war. And there's more than just Americans there, there's Canadians, British, Australians...on and on (The coalition of the willing, remember ) And it, too, seems to be a losing battle, the Taliban coming back, troops being killed, no end in sight.

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In my world-that-should-have-been fantasy, I imagine that instead of going to Iraq, we'd taken a third of the Iraq troops and plunked them down in Afghanistan. The suicide bombings that we're seeing now didn't start until after the Iraq war started--that's what really galvanized the jihadists. Interestingly, Afghanistan was remarkably calm until Iraq started up, and only then did things start going downhill. Now, if the Afghan government had really gotten a chance to get on its own feet, and if the Afghan National Army had been given the kind of training, equipment, and backup we're pouring down the drain in Iraq, the country would likely be much more stable today. I got a stake in both--I deployed to both with Naval Special Warfare. And if we ultimately fail in both places, I'm going to feel like I wasted 10 good years of my life.

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Originally posted by Geezer:
And what of those of us who want the government to leave us alone and instead address the social problems? I'm not poor, I got health insurance, I don't have a substance abuse problem, I'm not (dangerously) crazy, I don't commit crime, I don't engage in unprotected sex, I try to be environmentally responsible - I just want to be left alone to live my life. I do think that people who are poor, etc. should be helped by the government. I don't think the government should care who you have sex with (if it's safe), who you marry, what you worship (or not), how you keep from having babies, if you got guns in the basement(if you don't shoot folk with them for no good reason), etc.

So what kind of American am I?

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Well, note that I said those are simplifications. That's obviously not the sum total ideology of either side.

You seem to be that coveted middle ground; the much sought-after "undecided" voter.
Don't tell Rue, though; she's got you pegged as foaming-at-the-mouth conservative

Myself personally, I don't think the government can adequately address social problems without unduly interfering with individual liberties. Whatever happened to personal responsibility? Why don't the people help those who are in need? Why do they absolve themselves of responsibility and demand that the government do it? The demand that the government take care of every problem seems somewhat like the grown-up version of, "Mom, where's my backpack?"

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Last thing @ DesktopHippie:

Many of the criticisms you level are legitimate. But some just seem analoguous to what you're accusing us of doing. You decry our country for things like not having socialized healthcare or for having the death penalty as though it were already established that it is objectively right to have one and objectively wrong to have the other. You make this claim in the name of "progressive" Europe. And you implicitly call us backward and pat yourself on the back. But how is that not a similar sort of thing to what you accuse us of doing? From where I sit, it's an open question whether socialized health care is objectively good and whether the death penalty is objectively bad. That is to say, I think there is still room for debating on those points. So why do you criticize us for imposing our will on the rest of the world on the one hand, then on the other demand that we meet the standards of "progressive" Europe? Who objectively decided that the European standards are the right ones? And, what is more, in virtue of what would those standards be objectively right? For objective moral standards to obtain transculturally, a higher authority than culture has to be invoked in virtue of which those transcultural values obtain. Judging from the tenor of your post, you're not going to want to appeal to a deity to justify transcultural moral standards--in virtue of what, then, are you justified in assuming that the standards of Europe are objectively morally right, and the standards of the US are objectively morally wrong?

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Originally posted by Geezer:
Yep. your quote was an example of generalization as insult. No irony intended. I do like the conceit that you display in thinking you can describe all the 300 million people, with a multitude of backgrounds and beliefs, living in a country as big as all of Europe, as "ugly and hateful". Wow! A masterpiece of generalization indeed.

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It goes to demonstrate the depth to which anti-Americanism has been legitimized in certain circles. If we were talking about Jews or Africans (even African-Americans) no one would ever risk such a bigoted and hateful comment, but because we are talking about America in general, some people feel confident that such language will appear sophisticated and erudite. Clearly, some people, regardless of their nationality, are ugly and hateful. But Americans are no more ugly and hateful then anyone else. This is just bigotry and a pretty disgusting display of it. What else could it be? And it demonstrates precisely what Webb is talking about.

I can remember sitting in a café in London next to a French woman who began to tell me what she thought about Americans, unaware evidently that I was one. She told me that Americans were dogs and they should all be treated like dogs. And as she said it she had one of those smirks that people get when they think they’ve said something clever and stylish. She really thought she was something because of what she had to say about Americans, but in reality, all she was doing was towing the Nazi line. And as she sat there, so proud of herself for her hatred, I thought to myself, thank god America is a strong nation, because if we weren’t, what would people like this woman do to us if she was in power?

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Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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FMF and Finn, good posts.

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Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
As for the students at the "large foriegn -language school" ask those students how many of them would like to EMIGRATE to America. I venture to say quite a few.

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Yep. I have no idea who said this, but it was in a televised debate between political commentators a few years ago and one of the participants said that if you go to the Middle East, to a part where there are lots of young people who love nothing more than to declare their hatred for the US every chance they get, and if you set up two booths, one giving away free memberships to a terrorist organisation and one giving away free Green Cards, probably 90% of them would queue up for the latter. At the time I thought it was the most sensible comment in the debate, and the jist of it is probably true.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
And as she sat there, so proud of herself for her hatred, I thought to myself, thank god America is a strong nation, because if we weren’t, what would people like this woman do to us if she was in power?

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Then again, if America weren't strong there'd be less of a reason for people like her to hate it.

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"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."

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Catching up, brace yourself, its a *long* one. Please be warned that it is being presented as is, without much look over. Grammar and spelling will be awful. Also, I wrote this post in an editor while reading the thread. Thus I /may/ have mistakingly left a prior name while quoting someone else. Please let me know if this is the case, and I'll fix it.

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Originally posted by DesktopHippie:

Okay, with nothing but love for the posters here and a huge amount of generalisation and in no particular order, here are some of the issues I have with the US as a whole:

...

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Wow. Will you be my friend

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

For the most part, I consider it futile to prove bigots wrong. They will believe whatever they want to believe regardless of how rational it is. What can I do? And how much should I really care?

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Originally posted by Fletch2:

Oh and there is a big side helping of envy in there too.

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These just say it all; just drips with arrogance.

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Originally posted by Khyron:

Hating America is an accepted and somewhat fashionable type of prejudice, and while anti-Americanism is certainly borne out of principle in many cases (with some justification), it's mostly so popular simply because it's just trendy. Sort of the lowest common denominator of political statement (some of those involved might even call it philosphical movement or principle). It's become the Myspace or Pop Idols of ideology.

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While I'm not going to disagree with it being "trendy" I am going to disagree with your "some justification". I have a list longer than my leg of reasons why I... dislike the US.

That isn't to say that there aren't certain people that happen to be Americans that I do _not_ dislike. Here is where I think part of the problem is. Namely that people don't understand that there is a difference between hating Americans and hating America (or what it collectively does).

For instance, as I said above, I very much dislike America. But, at the same time, there are a number of people on this board who are Americans that I fully respect and quite like.

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:

It's like a child rejecting a disappointing role model, I think, ignoring that a role model is just a projection upon a person.

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I respectfully disagree. IMO, it's more along the lines of people seeing that a country is projecting a certain image. Then after they find out what the reality is, they become rather irriated. Basically, these two images are... different. Enough really that it can be considered a lie.

As an example one only needs to watch almost any American movie. You'll see what a wonderful thing the US is, and what wonders it brings. Then if you look at reality, you see indiscriminate killing around the world that's been going on for decades. Not to mention that US corps have actively worked to destroy other cultures around the world to make profit e.g. When Coca-Cola moved into India, it worked to destroy the Tea industry to improve the sale of the significantly more expensive product.

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Originally posted by Geezer:

Yep. your quote was an example of generalization as insult. No irony intended. I do like the conceit that you display in thinking you can describe all the 300 million people, with a multitude of backgrounds and beliefs, living in a country as big as all of Europe, as "ugly and hateful". Wow! A masterpiece of generalization indeed.

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The generalization is valide because it is about what a country does as as whole. NOT what each and every individual does as you seem to imply.

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Originally posted by Causal:

I get your point on the actions-taken-in-my name thing. But I'm thiking more internationally. If an American warplane intentionally dropped a bomb into a crowded market and killed 150 people, there'd be an international uproar. But just a couple of weeks ago, a car b

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