Warning Signs
POSTED BY: Jongsstraw
UPDATED: Sunday, April 29, 2007 19:28
VIEWED: 14532
PAGE 9 of 15
Prisoners per capita- WE'RE NUMBER ONE!
United States: 715 prisoners per 100,000 people
Comparing prisoners per 100,000 (1st number) to murders per 100,000 (2nd number)
United States 715, 43
Russia 584, 202
Belarus 554, 98
Palau 523, unk
Beliz 459, unk
Suriname 437, unk
Dominica 420, 29
Ukraine 416, 94
Bahamas 410, unk
South Africa 402, 496
Prisoners per 100,000 of nations that we know:
Canada 15
Germany 12
UK 43
Japan 5
Clearly, the nations that achieve low murder rates do so w/o resorting to high incarceration rates. And despite an incarceration rate that is more than 20-150X theirs, our murder rate is far higher.
Really? look at your own numbers.
The UK & US have the same incarceration rate.
Russia is way out there.
Also, these numbers are probably not accurate. There are reports of these events being altered by politicians to suit thier needs.
Firearms charges are often dropped to make political points, also many times suicides are lumped with "handgun deaths" to bolster the numbers etc.
By the way, how many in your numbers are repeat offenders that were released early because of the political correctness that permiates our legal system?
I believe that another statistic is that 90% of the crime in this country is comitted by 7% of the populace.
Also how many of those incarcerated or murders are caused by people of other nationalities, illeagal or otherwise?
We have 2 INS border patrolmen in prison right now for shooting a drug dealer who was in this country illeagally & filed charges from another country. (Reason that the're in prison...politics)
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I think the real and final answer is to let our government become the fascist regime they would like to become; they could outlaw guns, and crush those who would defy them. Most fat, lazy, clumbsy Americans couldn't kill with their bare hands, or even a sword- so murder rates would go down.
Or we could begin honouring our children by keeping them safe in the prisons- er, I mean, the schools.
Bitter? Yep. I resent the whole 'not-my-problem' attitude in the public schools concerning bullies.
I beat the crap out of a bully in History class in 9th grade when the teacher left for a few minutes, and bully-boy thought that was a good moment to attack me.
He was on the wrestling team, he thought he was such hot s**t and never saw it coming. Made me feel good for a few minutes there, but why did I have to do it? Why does the system allow that to happen at all?
Family values my ass.
No Child Left Alone should be the name of THAT program.
Grrr Arghh Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I think the real and final answer is to let our government become the fascist regime they would like to become; they could outlaw guns, and crush those who would defy them. Most fat, lazy, clumbsy Americans couldn't kill with their bare hands, or even a sword- so murder rates would go down.
Or we could begin honouring our children by keeping them safe in the prisons- er, I mean, the schools.
Bitter? Yep. I resent the whole 'not-my-problem' attitude in the public schools concerning bullies.
I beat the crap out of a bully in History class in 9th grade when the teacher left for a few minutes, and bully-boy thought that was a good moment to attack me.
He was on the wrestling team, he thought he was such hot s**t and never saw it coming. Made me feel good for a few minutes there, but why did I have to do it? Why does the system allow that to happen at all?
Family values my ass.
No Child Left Alone should be the name of THAT program.
Grrr Arghh Chrisisall
I remember boiling with rage when I was given punishment homework after a fight - the first I'd ever been in. Like you, I'd been attacked by a bully - who had tried to start a fight with me for three days running. I was livid because I knew damn well that the teacher knew the girl had been bullying me and hadn't done a damn thing. In fact, when I had complained of being bullied I'd been told that I was too sensitive.
One of my few regrets in life is doing that damn homework. Back then I just wasn't the type to question a teacher, no matter how unfair I thought the situation was. I really wish I'd been able to speak up. But then, it was the very fact that I couldn't that made them label me as "too sensitive" and leave me to get "toughened up" by a couple of years of misery.
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"Speaking from a purely Irish point of view - we don't allow explosives either but that never stopped the IRA."
Exactly, explosives aren't leagal in this country either (without the proper permits) but as I posted earlier you can walk into a grocery store & get the chemicals nessecary to set off a pretty decent size blast.
At Columbine they did just that. Cho could have done the same...it would have actually been cheaper. Cho laid out aroung $1,000 dollars for some upper-end hardware. Glock & Walther are 2 of the most expensive brands around.
Check me on this...the IRA uses guns too right?
Do "terrorist acts" end up in the statistics?
As I pointed out before, Cho's actions could easily be defined as a terrorist act, but because he used guns it never will be.
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"Look at your own numbers."
Ahem. Clearly you can't read.
Comparing prisoners per 100,000 United States 715, UK 43. And you say "The UK & US have the same incarceration rate". Not even close, try again.
Numbers not accurate? Sure ok, but not enough to change themn by a factor of 20.
"many times suicides are lumped with "handgun deaths"" Not true. Specifically, these numbers were separated out.
"Firearms charges are often dropped to make political points ..." So you are saying US number should be higher? How does this help your position?
"released early because of the political correctness" This is just insulting BS. So, to try to not be too insulting back, let me just ask you for some kind of data to back up your BS.
90% of the crime in this country is comitted by 7% ... caused by people of other nationalities, illeagal or otherwise ... politics. More BS.
If you's gonna play wit da big boys, you betta bring you big boy game. Otherwise you end up looking 
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Sorry I misread your numerical posts.
The 90% to 7% I believe is valid, it's either 7% or 14%. Or was about 5 years ago.
As to weather or not handgun deaths/suicides are used in the same stats, where did you get your stats?
The political coprrectness comment was NOT insulting sorry if you took it that way. There is a policy in many parts of this country of letting some truly despicable people back on the streets. The average murderer serves (on average) less that 7 years.
As to your "big boy" comment...now who's being insulting?
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Quote:
Originally posted by RojBlake:
Check me on this...the IRA uses guns too right?
Not any more. A ceasefire was negotiated a few years ago, and now they've officially disbanded and "put their arms beyond use."
Quote:
Do "terrorist acts" end up in the statistics?
Yep. The statistics I'm aware of anyway. You can have a look at the fascinating world of irish statistics at the Central Statistics Office website - www.cso.ie
Quote:
"Speaking from a purely Irish point of view - we don't allow explosives either but that never stopped the IRA."
Exactly, explosives aren't leagal in this country either (without the proper permits) but as I posted earlier you can walk into a grocery store & get the chemicals nessecary to set off a pretty decent size blast.
I have to say that argument doesn't make sense to me. It may be because I'm from a pretty non-gun culture and have a different outlook, but it sounds like your saying that there's no point in banning an effective killing weapon from general public access because if people try hard enough they'll find something else to kill you with. Yes, there are many, varied, inventive ways a human can kill another human, but guns are built to do nothing but kill - that's what they're made for, and they do it at long range.
Buying stuff needed to make a bomb takes time. Making a bomb takes time. Planting a bomb takes time, skill and a certain amount of luck unless you're planning to blow yourselve up with it and therefore don't care about getting caught planting it. The issue you're facing is that people don't have to do any of that stuff. They just walk into a shop and buy a gun. Or borrow a friends'. Or their parents' guns. If it's that easy to get your hards on something that kills people, how can you expect things like this not to happen?
Quote:
At Columbine they did just that. Cho could have done the same...it would have actually been cheaper. Cho laid out aroung $1,000 dollars for some upper-end hardware. Glock & Walther are 2 of the most expensive brands around.
At Columbine they used guns too. You know why? Because, like Cho, they wanted to kill everyone and, like Cho, they knew that guns do the job better.
A bomb will blow you to bits if you're on top of it. I'll blow off bits if you're further away. It'll start fires that burn people, crushes that hurt people and throw out shrapnel that'll rip right through the human body, but unless it's massive it won't kill everyone in a room.
Terrorists here had a brutal tactic. They would plant two bombs. The first one would go off, people who hadn't been hurt would run away, and then the second one would go off near an exit and kill the people trying to get to safety. Even with tactics like that, it's hard to kill a room full of people with a bomb.
When you want to kill everyone you do what Cho did - what the Columbine kids did - you walk around the room and systematically shoot everyone you find. Then you go back, and if anyone is moving, you shoot them again. A bomb can't do that. It can't pick off eveyone in a room one by one. That's why the gun is the mass killer's weapon of choice.
*edit* Also, guns are easy to hide in a shared dorm room. Several bags of fertilizer, lighter fluid and copper wiring? Not so much.
Quote:
As I pointed out before, Cho's actions could easily be defined as a terrorist act, but because he used guns it never will be.
Again this could be a cultural thing, but I'd always assumed terrorist to mean someone who kills as part of a political agenda. I could be wrong though. Is the unabomber considered a terrorist or a serial killer? Are the columbine killers considered terrorists because they used bombs?
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The 90% to 7% I believe is valid, it's either 7% or 14%. Or was about 5 years ago. link
As to weather or not handgun deaths/suicides are used in the same stats, where did you get your stats? A CDC
There is a policy in many parts of this country of letting some truly despicable people back on the streets. A But the reason has nothing to do with 'political correctness' and more to do with jail overcrowding, 'cause some people think it's more important to jail non-violent addicts rather than treat them in a non-jail setting, and letting the violent go free.
As to your "big boy" comment...now who's being insulting? A You're kidding, right?
(RojBlake had finally had enough. He took out his semi-automatic and ... JUST KIDDING !)
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Ponder this for a moment, in many years of carrying, I have never had to pop a round at another person, that's a 0.0% addition, and may it stay that way forever.
Statistically speaking, sure, it's unlikely I will find myself facing a situation where that may be needful - however given my employment and location grant me that it's more likely than your average citizen.
Well, statistically speaking, it's unlikely I will have a flat, or that my house will catch fire, but is that a reason to dump the spare from my car, the fire extinguisher from my house ?
It's the same basic reasoning, once you remove the ridiculous fear of an inanimate thing from the equation.
That being said... Hippie ?
I got into a lot of brawls in school before becoming adept *enough* at violence that it was a complete deterrent, and one of the schools I went to had an idiotic policy of suspending BOTH participants in a fight under the bullshit assumption that "It takes two to tango", something STILL espoused by many schools even in light of it's complete idiocy.
Well, this punk by the name of Ian decided to take issue with the fact that I was polluting the white race by dating a mixed girl, and after about ten minutes of racial hate spewing, conveniently ignored by the teacher, in response to finally being told "oh shut it, will you?", takes a swing at me in front of the entire class, the teacher, and the assistant admin who happened to be walking down the hall... and in that freeze frame moment, I decided to let it land, which hurt like a bitch mind you, he blacked my eye but good.
And then stood to it and let him pound on me till the teacher pulled him off.
And they still suspended me, even though I had no part in the fight, even though I did not raise a hand even in my own defense, quoting their asinine "policy".
My mother tried to address this stupidity with the school and was nastily rebuffed, resulting in a "green light" for what happened next, as this punk would not leave it alone, and the NEXT time a swing was thrown, severe ugliness resulted, followed by expulsion, mine.
That blame the victim shit has to go, and they ought to be damned glad I didn't read Enders Game till I was sixteen, or I would have handed out the "Stilson Treatment" to some of these punks myself - so forgive me if when the same rhetoric is applied to CCW, I get a bit snippy about it.
As for the prison anology, Sarge ?
A substantial amount of school personnel, at least in Baltimore City and North AA county is concerned, are former corrections officers, up to and including the principal of one school I went to, who was referred to even by the students as "The Warden" and chose indeed to run her school like that, right down to playing factions against each other to keep them out of HER hair - many admins run their schools like prisons or kennels, with an adversarial relation to the students, considering them less than people, and those admins need to be drummed out of the entire educational system.
And Roj ?
The folks you are speaking of are called "Lifestyle Violent Offenders", crossreference with the work of Andrew Vachss and you might find the statistics in question, I know he's mentioned them a time or two.
And this horror of a society creates them, which is the main point of a lot of what I am saying here.
-Frem
EDIT
Quote:
There is a policy in many parts of this country of letting some truly despicable people back on the streets. A But the reason has nothing to do with 'political correctness' and more to do with jail overcrowding, 'cause some people think it's more important to jail non-violent addicts rather than treat them in a non-jail setting, and letting the violent go free.
Agreed, this war on drugs madness eats up prison space that should be used for those violent offenders that simply can not, or will not, be rehabilitated... the only thing I've ever seen a pothead viciously assault was my fridge.
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Actuaally I would consider Cho's a terrorist act because of his "manifesto" sending the stuff to NBC etc. Columbine had no such elements, the stuff they found later wasn't planned as a part of ant "statement". Also Cho's stuff didn't come accross as a "suicide note", to me anyway.
As I pointed out in another post there are indeed other uses for firearms, Cowboy Action Shooting is a sport, hunting, relaxation (yes I actually find shooting paper targets relaxing), etc.
Swords were made to kill exclusively too, & yet in the 1500's Spain tried to impliment :dagger control".
Also you don't "just walk into a shop & buy a gun", not anymore. There are background checks, waiting periods etc. Cho managed his act with legally obtained firearms...a rarity actually.
At Columbine thos 2 had "illeagal" guns...if memory serves they were obtained by a third party & given to the loons. As far as I'm concerned that 3rd party was as guilty (if not more so) than the shooters themselves.
And to all, if you go back a couple of my posts you will find that I agree that our culture is different, I wasn't arguing that at all.
Prison overcrowding is also a measure of politics (if not exactly PC), people have a real problem with NIMBY in this country.
Also as to all of the stats, how does the number of "gun deaths" even stack up with "per capita" number of guns owned?
Remember too that many of those stats include accidental discharges, hunting accidents etc.
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