Warning Signs
POSTED BY: Jongsstraw
UPDATED: Sunday, April 29, 2007 19:28
VIEWED: 14532
PAGE 8 of 15
RojBlake
Quote:Of course not. Every population has SOME deviants in it. But the United States has more PER CAPITA than all other industrialized nations: Here are the ones 5+/5- from the USA ranking (per thousand people, to account for differences in poulation size)
I guess that depends on your definitions; or are you honestly suggesting that w're the only country that has murderers? Or mass murderers? Or serial killers? Or terrorist acts? (by the by if Cho had strapped a bomb to himself we'd be calling it that, not a rampage...same effect different politics) Also there is already a disconnect between the fact that as contries go the US is one of the largest in size, population, culture, & personal freedoms.
Costa Rica: 0.061006
Poland: 0.0562789
Georgia: 0.0511011
Uruguay: 0.045082
Bulgaria: 0.0445638
United States: 0.042802
Armenia: 0.0425746
India: 0.0344083
Yemen: 0.0336276
Dominica: 0.0289733
Azerbaijan: 0.0285642
Compared to nations that we're more familiar with:
France 0.0173272 (approx 1/2 of USA)
Australia 0.0150324 (approx 1/3)
Canada 0.0149063 (approx 1/3)
United Kingdom: 0.0140633 (approx 1/3)
Germany 0.0116461 (approx 1/4)
Japan 0.00499933 (approx 1/10)
Among industrialized nations, the USA crime rate sticks out like a sore thumb. What are we doing differently from them?
Gun ownerhsip by nation: Percent of homes with firearms
Australia 16%
Japan 1%
Canada 26%
New Zealand 20%
Finland 50%
Norway 32%
France 23%
Spain 13%
Germany 9%
United Kingdom 4%
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Among industrialized nations, the USA crime rate sticks out like a sore thumb. What are we doing differently from them?
I'm gonna go with arresting more people for more crimes.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:Glorifying gun-violence in our movies and TV shows. We need more stuff like Buffy and Dark Angel where the main characters look down on gun use.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Among industrialized nations, the USA crime rate sticks out like a sore thumb. What are we doing differently from them?
Seriously, Chrisisall
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Cho is like a lot of other extreme cases. Whatever might work to deal with people like him is not what will work to deal with most.
The US:
10,105 gun-related homicides out of 14,860 (2005)
16,907 gun-related suicides (2004)
54,447 non-fatal violence-related gunshots (2000)
23,237 non-fatal accidental gunshots (2000)
Cho's approximate relative contribution is 0.3% of all homicides, 0.006% of all suicides, and 0.05% of all non-fatal gunshots.
To eliminate the largest part of the problem, you need to address the OTHER gun owners. I realize there are many responsible people who own guns. But in their quest to retain their legal right to own guns they end up having to answer for the yahoos, macho-shitheads, flakes, bubbas, greedy bastards, abusers, and gangstas who also own guns.
So I put it out there: what would YOU do to clean up the gun owning population, so that everyone would be as well-intended, knowledgeable, moderate and responsible as you?
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Quote:Oh yeah, THAT'LL help!
I'm gonna go with arresting more people for more crimes.
Prisoners per capita- WE'RE NUMBER ONE!
United States: 715 prisoners per 100,000 people
Comparing prisoners per 100,000 (1st number) to murders per 100,000 (2nd number)
United States 715, 43
Russia 584, 202
Belarus 554, 98
Palau 523, unk
Beliz 459, unk
Suriname 437, unk
Dominica 420, 29
Ukraine 416, 94
Bahamas 410, unk
South Africa 402, 496
Prisoners per 100,000 of nations that we know:
Canada 15
Germany 12
UK 43
Japan 5
Clearly, the nations that achieve low murder rates do so w/o resorting to high incarceration rates. And despite an incarceration rate that is more than 20-150X theirs, our murder rate is far higher.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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The problem is that whenever you do statistics you usually get a somewhat skewed result. A few years ago a stydy was done county by county, state by state & the results were pretty interesting.
One of the other problems is that the numbers don't cover non-reported instances of guns/weapons being used in a deterrent capacity.
However the other truth is this, guns do not = violence.
I realize that this is a popular belief, but it simply isn't true.
Also in some of those statistics that were posted...how does one have gun violence in countries that don't allow guns?
For that matter how does one get guns in a "gun-free" zone or state? Simple you disobey the law/rules.
This has always been the crux of the matter, laws punish the law abiding.
The US isn't going to ban guns...it will make it more difficult to obtain, it will make it easier to victimize innocent but it won't ban it outright.
The US tried banning alcohol=faliure.
The US won't ban cigarettes=loss of tax revenue (hell the US subsidises tobacco farmers)
The US will interfere with it's citizens whenever it can. (seriously we have guys like Ted Kennedy trying to tel us how/ what we can eat)
Does anyone have any idea how much money is involved in the gun industry in this country? In tax revenue alone it's probably in the "billions".
Carry permits, hunting licenses, hunter-safety courses, ammunition, holsters, gun cleaning supplies, shooting sports, etc.
One of the fastest growing sports in this country is "Cowboy Action Shooting", which is also one of those "cultural differences" I mentioned before.
The gun in linked to this countries heritage...Culumbus had matchlock muskets back in 1492.
Unlike many other nations our heroes were not only armed with guns, alot of them were outlaws.
The founding fathers were considered traitors weren't they?
Jesse James, Billy the Kid, et al. I bet if you sat down & thought about it you could name far more outlaws & criminals glorified out of our history than the more traditional "hero types".
This site is dedicated to a group of criminals...Mal & company are criminals right?
Mal & company are also based on our rather colorful western history.
Buffy would be considered a vigalante.
How about our other icons...pirates.
Let's be honest here, no peace beyond the line?
Europe left the new world to crate its own rules...& it did.
Blackbeard, Black Bart Roberts, etc.
Hell Europes greatest rouges are some of our greatest "pistol packing" heroes...Henry Morgan for instance (we even named a rum after him).
These are part of our national culture...& yes it's violent & ugly. It was also part of our popular culture long before the advent of TV or cinema. Billy the Kid read about his glorified exploits in his own lifetime.
England imposed taxes & restrictions that allowed piracy & smugglers to flourish as part of our early survival...it's one of the reasons that our national character was defined by such men.
Right now one of the hottest media properties is "Captain Jack Sparrow", I like the movies...but be honest, what characteristics make that character worthy of praise & adoration?
Consider the much vaunted Star Wars franchise...one of the most popular characters...Han Solo (smuggler & pirate).
I'm sure we can all go through many more such examples...so if the argument is that the US culture is different from that of Europe, you're right.
Then again I like pirates & cowboys, I like Cowboy Action Shooting, I like Han Solo, & I think the crew of Serenity is probably one of the great creations of modern science fiction.
Not going to apologize for any of that.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
So I put it out there: what would YOU do to clean up the gun owning population?
I would make any and all kinds of guns legal (to be anally compliant with the NRA's interpretation of ammendment 2) BUT to own a weapon you first have to agree to be shot with it in the extremity of your choice. If you are caught with an illegal weapon that legal requirement is done after arrainment but the police officer gets to choose where to shoot you.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Oh yeah, THAT'LL help!
I'm gonna go with arresting more people for more crimes.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was just saying that part of the reason our crime stats are so high is that we arrest more people. I was being glib.
In general it's hard for me to take statistical arguments seriously.
** ROJBLAKE -
Is there any reason why your posts all come out double spaced? It makes them a pain in the butt to read and it's wearing out my scroll wheel. :)
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:
Originally posted by RojBlake:
Also in some of those statistics that were posted...how does one have gun violence in countries that don't allow guns?
Speaking from a purely Irish point of view - we don't allow explosives either but that never stopped the IRA.
*edit* Getting back to the subject of the post - you can't target the mentally ill, label them as dangerous and expect that to protect people. It won't. It'll make things worse. People people who need help won't get it. They'll avoid it like the plague. The stigma around mental health is bad enough as it is!
Like I said before, one in five people suffer mental illness at some point in their lives. Hell, I've been mentally ill (clinical depression for those who are curious, yeah yeah, the hippie is crazy, don't all fall off your chairs laughing at once) and the chances are you know someone else who has been mentally ill - whether they've chosen to tell you are not. Of that group, a significant percentage will act erratically or violently at some point. It's not because they're dangerous killers - it's because they're sick and they need help. Putting a "warning! abusive!" sign around their necks won't help. In fact, it's likely to cause massive stress and self consciousness and increase feelings of paranoia and isolation - none of which are good things no matter how stable you are. Think for five minutes what it would be like to wear a label like that. You want someone who's mentally ill to go through that???
No, it's not the solution. There are no easy answers to this question. But you'll get a hell of a lot further with a well funded, well run mental health service that can provide as much psychiatric assistance and properly prescribed medication as is needed to anyone who needs it for as long as they need it. And having a society that talks openly and honestly about mental health issues won't hurt either!
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