Firefly's deep characters!

POSTED BY: Houdini
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 05:50
VIEWED: 10169
PAGE 3 of 3

PREV PAGE 1 2 3

TDBROWN

Sunday, April 22, 2007 4:12 PM

I dunno, I always thought that River's meaning was that she Understood that guns are dangerous, that she shouldn't touch guns, but that she couldn't Comprehend why they were in That Moment; Why the object had become a Gun.

I think one of the more brilliant insights into River's mind is the "I understand" speech from River to Simon in the Safe Episode. You see the sane little girl peeking out to say that "I'll get better", and the confused girl saying "I remember too much; Some of it's made up, some of it can't be quantified, and there are secrets... but I understand. You gave up everything you had to find me, and you found me broken..."
-A wonderful moment from the Series, and one of my favorites.

*****************
Staying on topic, but switching characters

I've been giving some thought to Simon and why his character seems different in the BDM; Why he seems more aggressive and sure of himself. There is a visible tension between Mal and Simon that wasn't as obvious in the Series, and I think I know why...

Simon claimed in the Pilot that an Underground Group "helped him" get River out of The Academy and that he didn't know what The Academy had done to her or why. Now, I know Joss says he "changed" that to make it so non-fans could know the back story. But if Simon did get her out himself (with help) and get a slight idea of what was done to her and why, it actually works to explain some of Simon's behavior in the Series. He's a little deceptive about what he knows about River. In "Safe", he struggles to explain how River knew about Ruby's past trauma. You get the feeling that he knows she can reads minds. He is "surprised at what she knows" sometimes, but overall he's protective of her because he knows her potentials and wants to protect her. When Mal calls the meeting in Objects in Space, Simon tries to evade the issue of River's abilities, but the Cat's out of the Bag. When Zoe basically nails it by saying that River could've been trained as an Assassin, you (Well, me, anyway) can feel the beginnings of the tension between Mal and Simon; the distrust of Simon's knowlege and motives.

-Just a thought, an Idea...

"Might have been the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one." -Mal

THEREALME

Sunday, April 22, 2007 4:36 PM

A moment, not necessarily my favorite, of Zoe:

Immediately after Wash dies, Zoe is emotionally torn up, crying, doing irrational things like trying to coax an obviously dead man to get up and come with her.

Soon afterward, she is the hard-as-nails military person, checking her weapon and responding in monosyllables like Joe Friday. Clearly, she has retreated to the warrior woman persona because (I think) that was all she had before Wash changed her with their love together. Without Wash, perhaps, that is all that Zoe is!

Not that I believe that, but as a short-term coping mechanism, I think that works. Good insight into the character by Joss, though.

TDBROWN

Sunday, April 22, 2007 4:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheRealMe:
A moment, not necessarily my favorite, of Zoe:

Immediately after Wash dies, Zoe is emotionally torn up, crying, doing irrational things like trying to coax an obviously dead man to get up and come with her.

Soon afterward, she is the hard-as-nails military person, checking her weapon and responding in monosyllables like Joe Friday. Clearly, she has retreated to the warrior woman persona because (I think) that was all she had before Wash changed her with their love together. Without Wash, perhaps, that is all that Zoe is!

Not that I believe that, but as a short-term coping mechanism, I think that works. Good insight into the character by Joss, though.

Good observation! Gina Torres herself has said that she thinks it would be hard to play the character of Zoe now, because it was her relationship with Wash that gave her character Depth. I think it would be interesting to see if Joss can take her character in new directions now, give her an Inner depth and strength to match the outer strength that we can see...

"Might have been the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one." -Mal

ZZETTA13

Sunday, April 22, 2007 5:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
Quote:
Originally posted by shameless:
By the by... I should probably watch the commentary, since Joss might provide the answer there, but... I've never understood the line, "She understands. She doesn't comprehend." What's the difference, both generally and as it applies to River? Any thoughts?
Yes, you should watch the commentary -- that episode's is the best of all of them, in my opinion, both in terms of interesting details and as a window into Joss' thinking process.

However, I don't recall any specific comments on that line. So I'll offer a couple of my own thoughts, for whatever they're worth.

1. Possibly the 'she' in each half of the line is referring to a "different River". "She" (meaning the innocent 16-year-old girl) understands that guns are dangerous, but "she" (meaning the weapon produced by the Alliance tampering) doesn't see any reason for concern. I kind of like this idea, but the way the line is delivered doesn't really give it much support.

2. Maybe the two words have different meanings to River, even though they mean much the same to the rest of us. Their definitions are very similar; my dictionary even uses the word "comprehend" in the first definition of "understand". But there are some distinctions. "Comprehend" means to grasp something mentally; to "undestand" may mean something closer to "know".

So maybe River is saying that she knows guns are dangerous in the abstract, but doesn't really "get it". Think about a little kid who sticks her finger in a candle flame, then runs crying to Mommy when she gets burned. When Mommy asks, "Didn't you know the flame was hot, that it would hurt you?" the child will probably say yes. She understood she wasn't supposed to play with fire, but until she actually burned her finger she didn't really "get it" -- it was just an abstract concept.

Of course, another possibility is that it was a way for Joss to show us that River was crazy. After all, only a crazy person could understand something but not comprehend it... right?

By the way, the English language is unique in the extent to which it has multiple words to express the same idea. It's the only language that requires a thesaurus. It has adopted words from many different languages, which means there are synonyms galore that can take on slightly different connotations and shades of meaning. It would be very difficult to write a line like this in any other language (without using a word from a second language).

For those interested, "understand" comes from old English words that literally meant "to stand under". "Comprehend" is from Latin words meaning "to grasp together".

Edit to add: Oops, I just thought of possibility number...

3. Maybe River is saying she understands that guns are dangerous, but she doesn't really comprehend what's going on -- i.e. why's everybody making a fuss? After all, she knows how to handle guns. Which is true... as we know but the crew doesn't.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

Interesting thoughts on this. Here's anothers thing to look at. Later in that eps River tells Mal that she's very close to him (Early). He doesn't even see it. This has me thinking that maybe River and Early could be on the same wave/link. Something where emotions, feelings and thoughts are simmilar to one anothers. I remember the scene where Simon asks Early if he's a bounty hunter. Jubal replies " No that aint it at all. I'm a bounty hunter." Almost like when River says she understands, but she doesn't comprehend.

Z

TDBROWN

Sunday, April 22, 2007 6:10 PM

Quote:

Interesting thoughts on this. Here's anothers thing to look at. Later in that eps River tells Mal that she's very close to him (Early). He doesn't even see it. This has me thinking that maybe River and Early could be on the same wave/link. Something where emotions, feelings and thoughts are simmilar to one anothers. I remember the scene where Simon asks Early if he's a bounty hunter. Jubal replies " No that aint it at all. I'm a bounty hunter." Almost like when River says she understands, but she doesn't comprehend.

Z

River and Early do seem alot alike, in that they think on several levels at once. In the "I'm a Bounty Hunter" scene Early is thinking of something else, is in the Abstract when Simon says "Are you a Bounty Hunter?"

Early: "No, that ain't it at all" (He's still thinking about River's room being 'imbued' with her identity)
Simon: "So. what are you?"
Early (Brought back to the moment): "I'm a Bounty Hunter."

It's a similar situation when Early says "That ain't a Shepherd" about Book lying unconscious on the floor. Sure, folks want to believe that Early knows Book has a secret past, but it's far more likely that Early is merely in the Abstract, saying "I don't see any sheep; That ain't no Shepherd!"

Joss even makes light of Early's observation during his commentaries.

But yeah, this all ties into the overall Depth that Joss & Company have given to the characters. So much fun; so Much to explore!!

"Might have been the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one." -Mal

TWITCH

Monday, April 23, 2007 10:25 PM

Oh wow! I haven't read all the responses since you posted this, but shameless brought up one of my favorite lines in Firefly, and hands-down my favorite line in Objects In Space:

"She understands. She doesn't comprehend."

That, to me, defined the entire episode. It's River's episode, told from River's perception, though not entirely from her viewpoint. (And it's this sort of character development and expression that, to me, makes Firefly an outstanding written and performed work.)

There's a wealth of difference between the two. The lead-up to that line is a fantastic dip into River's mind that illustrates the difference: Her perception of what is going on around her is out of sync with what other people are perceiving. People are saying one thing, but meaning something else entirely, as in the conversation with Mal and Inara. People are laughing when they're scared, joking when they're serious, and a whole ocean of emotion is rolling out of everyone around her. When she replies to Mal, saying she understands but doesn't comprehend, she means exactly that. She understands. She could probably repeat his words back to him verbatim. But she may not know what he means.

I'm explaining myself poorly. At the risk of sounding maudlin, I've found myself in shoes similar to River's at that moment in that scene, minus the loaded handgun. (And no, I'm not talking about wearing combat boots, mind you... I was speaking figuratively about the shoes.) Things happen and you really don't comprehend why. You understand that they've happened, but the comprehension of what it all means simply isn't there.

Which may explain why River's my second mostest favoriteist character after Kaylee. (I come from an engineering background.) I loved the scene in Shindig when Kaylee held court. I was blown away when River got an entire episode to do the same.

-- Twitch

TWITCH

Monday, April 23, 2007 10:32 PM

The post Wash character of Zoe has huge potential in my mind. Some months ago in another thread, someone pointed out that the welding job Zoe was doing at the end of BDM was to replace the viewport that was smashed by the harpoon that killed Wash. Holy cow, that's beyond retreating into the warrior woman persona and doing something to get closure. Cripes, she was welding shut the hole in Serenity, in herself. After reading that thread and re-watching the movie, I nearly burst into tears during that sequence.

Egads writing about all this makes me wish harder than ever for a sequel.

-- Twitch

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Monday, April 23, 2007 10:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by twitch:
The post Wash character of Zoe has huge potential in my mind. Some months ago in another thread, someone pointed out that the welding job Zoe was doing at the end of BDM was to replace the viewport that was smashed by the harpoon that killed Wash. Holy cow, that's beyond retreating into the warrior woman persona and doing something to get closure. Cripes, she was welding shut the hole in Serenity, in herself. After reading that thread and re-watching the movie, I nearly burst into tears during that sequence.

Egads writing about all this makes me wish harder than ever for a sequel.

-- Twitch

I never noticed that. That's unbelievable!

*wanders off to watch the movie again and cry*

Banners, Avatars, LJ Icons and other fun stuff at www.desktophippie.com

MSKVFORESTER

Tuesday, April 24, 2007 4:43 AM

Damn, now I have to go back and watch the episode. I swear I thought Early said, "I'm not a bounty hunter , I'm a body hunter" (or something to that affect.

Also, whats up with the Lion versus Alliance comment by Early?

WHIMSICALNBRAINPAN

Tuesday, April 24, 2007 5:50 AM

Honestly my biggest surprise character-wise was in Heart Of Gold when Zoe starts talking about how much she wants a baby. I did not see that coming and looked at her character in a whole different light after that.

"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." http://whimsicalnbrainpan.blogspot.com/

PREV PAGE 1 2 3