Firefly's deep characters!
POSTED BY: Houdini
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 05:50
VIEWED: 10169
PAGE 2 of 3
One of my faves is another Jayne scene: When Jayne is in the airlock and Mal is walking away, knowing Jayne's losing atmo as they speak. The mercy beggin's over with at that point.
Jayne: "What are you gonna tell the others?"
Mal: "About what?"
Jayne: "About why I'm dead."
Mal: "I hadn't thought about it."
Jayne: "Make something up. Don't tell them what I did."
That's some of my favorite character-defining dialogue in the show. Especially since, as others have pointed out, Jayne is most usually used for comic relief. There's a lot to his character. I just wish all the writers of Firefly had had a chance to develop him further.
One of my other favorite scenes happened at the tail end of the pilot: After the running, the discovery, the fight, the bloodshed, Shepherd Book is in dire need of council and comfort. The confessional scene in Inara's shuttle was nothing short of beautiful.
For River, Objects in Space, the whole episode, is fantastic. The way River's perceptions were handled, both through dialogue and cinematography, was outstanding. The first time I saw the scene when she picks up the stick from the floor of the hold, and the confusion and dialogue that follows, my breath really was taken away. Even two movies isn't enough to finish where Objects in Space left off, from that standpoint alone.
Aaaah, I can't wait until Dark Horse publishes the second book. I also can't wait until Universal figures out the fanbase has expanded since Serenity hit the theaters. I'm not done with these characters!
(I'm also having a blast watching Drive. It's obvious Tim Minear has brought his outstanding writing talents to that show as well.)
I swear, Firefly should be required viewing for screen writers. Jose Molina, Tim Minear, and Joss Whedon build characters like few other screen writers I've seen.
Outstanding thread. Good call!
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Well, I have a host of them, and I could name a fistful for every character, because they change in each and every episode. Were I not the first one to say this, I'd fear getting laughed at, but it's good to know that I'm not alone. Good ol' simple-minded Jayne has a couple of good definint moments. I agree wih Niknak about the end of Jayne's Town, however in my humble opinion, the stronger scene was afterwards, when Jayne was standing alone in the cargo bay.
JAYNE: Don't make no sense. Why the hell'd that mudder go an do that, Mal? Jumpin' in front a' that shotgun blast. Weren't a one of them understood what happened out there - hell, they're probably stickin' that statue right back up.
MAL: Most like.
JAYNE: Don't know why that eats at me so...
MAL: It's my estimation that every man ever got a'statue made of him was one kind of sommbitch or another. Ain't about you, Jayne. 'Bout what they need.
JAYNE: Don't make no sense
First off, Jayne could have gone alone to his bunk and thought this over all he wants. But this shows that even the hero Jayne needs help sometimes. He probably didn't consciously stand in a public area, but it seems more than a little odd that he didn't go hide himself away. I like how he is unable to accept that the downtrodden need a hero, because he obviously doesn't view himself as one, which is a big contrast to the beginning, before his secret was revealed, when he was partying away. It also shows, once again, that Mal is there for his crew, even Jayne. So, it's a two-for-one deal. The other is a short scene from The Message.
JAYNE: Me, I see a stiff -- one I didn't have to kill myself -- I just get, you know, the urge to do stuff. Work out, run around, get some trim if there's a willin' woman about... not that I get flush from corpses or anything. I ain't crazy.
BOOK: Makes sense. Looking to feel alive, I would venture.
JAYNE: For psychology, that ain't half dumb. My kind of life don't last, preacher. So I expect I'm invested in making good sport of it whilst I can.
This one isn't as powerful as the other one, but it's important. Jayne is a take-charge kind of guy who bulls in without looking the situation over, and as long as in the two seconds before he lowers his head for the charge there aren't any reavers in sight, he's not too afraid of anything. Openly, leastwise. But here, contrary to his tough guy, fear nothing attitude, he publically admits that he fears death. And with the sheppard no less (someone who prays over the dead!). It seems to kind of cement the frendship that they've slowly beein developing throughout the series (also ironic, a preacher and a crook, best friends). I love watching how these two get along and interact.
--SDS
"Wherever we want to go, we'll go. That's what a ship is, you know. It's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails. That's what a ship needs but what a ship is... what the Black Pearl really is... is freedom."
--Capt. Jack Sparrow
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Mornin fellow browncoats
Well guys you've gone and done it again. You've picked out the the most quoted and deepest explored character of the first 14 FF eps.
JAYNE 
Adam did a great job with this guy (as the whole cast with their characters as well) One of the fun things for me now is watching the faces of ppl who are seeing FF for the first time. When one of my sisters saw FF a few weeks ago she recognized Adam Baldwin. " He's not a very good actor." she commented. "Wait a minute, give him a chance." I said. By the time we had gotten to the Janyestown eps she was ROFL. That eps was truely Adams eps entirely.
Jayne "You guys had a riot ona'count of me?"
Mubber shakes head affirmatively "I'm glad you're back."
Jayne in tears "How could I stay away." Said almost like the FORCE was with him to come back.
Jayne is an intelligent fellow, but fair to say not abundantly intelligent. He works hard, plays hard and is in good spirits if he gets paid. Of course working hard means exployting the efforts of that hard work. Nothing sums this up better than in the Ariel eps where we hear Jayne exclaim,
" We applied the cortical electrodes
but were unable to get a neural
reaction from either patient."
Who of us would let a bugheaded nurse refuse us our due. I may have been laughing my a$$ off at Adam for that one but I totally knew where he was coming from.
Z
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
JAYNE: For psychology, that ain't half dumb. My kind of life don't last, preacher. So I expect I'm invested in making good sport of it whilst I can.
I didn't notice it before until I saw it written down but that phrase always sounded familiar. It's a paraphrase of another mercenary and pirate, Bartholomew Roberts.
"In an honest service there is thin commons, low wages, and hard labour. In this, plenty and satiety, pleasure and ease, liberty and power; and who would not balance creditor on this side, when all the hazard that is run for it, at worst is only a sour look or two at choking? No, a merry life and a short one shall be my motto."
Maybe Jayne knows a bit of history of Earth That Was.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.bigdamnthankyou.com/
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I wouldn't put it past Jayne to quote a scoundrel, if he was going to quote anyone. But I don't think a man who has trouble with the word "travels" (The Message) would be so well read. Maybe Joss is the one who is the well read one. Well, we know he is, but I mean maybe he intended the paraphrase. And zzetta13, I know what you mean about Jayne and that hospital line. I always smile when he says that, because it seems so fitting for him. He worked hard to learn those big long words, and dang it, he was going to use them if it killed him.
--SDS
"Wherever we want to go, we'll go. That's what a ship is, you know. It's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails. That's what a ship needs but what a ship is... what the Black Pearl really is... is freedom."
--Capt. Jack Sparrow
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
What a great thread!
I've always felt that one character the writers never got around to developing to her potential is Zoe. I wish we had gotten more episodes, just to explore her character in detail. They (the writers, especially Joss) did manage to give us some insight in subtle ways, though.
In the Pilot Episode we get a strong glimpse of Zoe's loyalty to Mal, but we get a feel for her disappointment too. I'm thinking of the scene when Badger mentions the Alliance Markings on the cargo and Zoe's wordless look at Mal that says "You held back from us"; a look of disappointment and disapproval that speaks louder than any words. Wash implies that Zoe's loyalty to Mal is blind, but if he had been there to see that look...
One of the frustrations of not having more Episodes is the new Angle that looked to have a lot of potential, alluded to in "Heart of Gold": Wash and Zoe's views on having a child. The emotional makeup of both of them is revealed in that conversation, and it would have been wonderful to see that developed further. Zoe as the mothering type... huh.
"Might have been the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one." -Mal
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Well, first off - in response to you, ShinyDS:
I also love the way Jayne and Book's friendship just gets stronger and stronger. I just wanted to add that I believe that one thing that allows Book to be a true shepherd, yet not be averse to Jayne as a person based on his surface characteristics (there's so much beneath that! He still has his own code, and he has more than just a "money, fightin' and sexin'" personality) and actually connect with the seemingly - or perhaps actual? - opposite of a preacher is the strong possibility that Book might not have led such a different life before he became a shepherd. I'm of the mind that he could have been an operative...
Anywho.
Well, I just watched Objects in Space again today (I originally preferred the mostly funny episodes - ie Jaynestown - but this is starting to become a favorite), and the relationship I'm thinking of in response to the thread topic is that between Kaylee and River. There's a lot of depth in a friendship where somebody cares so much about somebody that even though they do something that scares you, you don't want anybody to think badly of them. It could have been written that Kaylee kept silent for fear of getting shot herself, but instead, it's a personal conflict. Also, something I noticed...
River: It's just an object. Doesn't mean what you think.
chaos ensues
In the middle of all that chaos, River calls out, uncertainly, almost fearfully, what's-going-on?: "Kaylee?" She's not just a crazy girl (well, we all knew THAT, but I thought I'd say the obvious and tack something else on to her character), and here's yet another example of how she's aware of how her perceptions don't match reality. She's confused and a little afraid, perhaps, and she reaches out to her friend (who is edging back from the sight of River with a gun).
Yep - just that little call spoke volumes to me.
By the by... I should probably watch the commentary, since Joss might provide the answer there, but... I've never understood the line, "She understands. She doesn't comprehend." What's the difference, both generally and as it applies to River? Any thoughts?
Oh, and one last thing... When Joss wrote Our Mrs. Reynolds, he did a superb job at portraying Wash as someone who is trying to keep the peace and give Saffron the benefit of the doubt, rather than as a guy who is defending the subservient girl for his own reasons, as Zoe seems to think at one point.
------------------------------------------
RPG launcher bought in third world country illegally - $10
Landmines - $50 per
Attack/track dogs bred 1st class - $250-500 per
Highpowered assault rifles - $600 per
The look on your face when I show up on your doorstep with a bigfoot - ... Priceless
"You gotta love that the first pirated HD DVD is the one about space pirates who broadcast a video that the government wants to keep secret.
Can't stop the signal."
-reavers_ate_my_dvd
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
The subtleties are what fleshes them out and makes them three deminsional. One of my fav's is not so subtle, the scene w/ Jayne in the airlock in Ariel (as Twitch already mentioned). Jayne apears to be a shallow, self-serving thug; he's about to die, why the hell should he care what the others think of him when he's gone? But he does and that concern and the implied potential for growth in Mal's eyes is his salvation (that and the fact, from what I've read, that all the writers were really digging the character at that point and Joss decided to keep him around, counter to the original plan). People change and grow; most of Joss's characters do too. That's one of the things that make them more real and identifiable to people (even the one's you hate, you can sometimes sympathise w/).
"it's my estimation that...every man that ever had a statue made out of 'im was one kind of a sonofabitch or another."
-Mal
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Sorry, I keep posting here. I can't help it. You guys write some fascinating stuff. I remember what you're talking about, the cry for help to Kaylee. I wish I could see it again, though, now that I have youre new perspective to view it through. Unfortunately, I forgot my set at home, and won't be back at home until the end of July. However, there is a video rental place around here that has it... River's quite the mish-mash. She's got heeps and heeps of blatantly obvious crazy that are decorated by her underlying prepsychotic period. Sometimes she shouts or flips out, but just the looks she gives or small lines really let you know just what's going on in there. Summer really portrayed that role more realistically than I ever thought possible (as did the rest of the crew, of course 
but we're talking about River at the moment).
--SDS
"Wherever we want to go, we'll go. That's what a ship is, you know. It's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails. That's what a ship needs but what a ship is... what the Black Pearl really is... is freedom."
--Capt. Jack Sparrow
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Yes, you should watch the commentary -- that episode's is the best of all of them, in my opinion, both in terms of interesting details and as a window into Joss' thinking process.
Originally posted by shameless:
By the by... I should probably watch the commentary, since Joss might provide the answer there, but... I've never understood the line, "She understands. She doesn't comprehend." What's the difference, both generally and as it applies to River? Any thoughts?
However, I don't recall any specific comments on that line. So I'll offer a couple of my own thoughts, for whatever they're worth.
1. Possibly the 'she' in each half of the line is referring to a "different River". "She" (meaning the innocent 16-year-old girl) understands that guns are dangerous, but "she" (meaning the weapon produced by the Alliance tampering) doesn't see any reason for concern. I kind of like this idea, but the way the line is delivered doesn't really give it much support.
2. Maybe the two words have different meanings to River, even though they mean much the same to the rest of us. Their definitions are very similar; my dictionary even uses the word "comprehend" in the first definition of "understand". But there are some distinctions. "Comprehend" means to grasp something mentally; to "undestand" may mean something closer to "know".
So maybe River is saying that she knows guns are dangerous in the abstract, but doesn't really "get it". Think about a little kid who sticks her finger in a candle flame, then runs crying to Mommy when she gets burned. When Mommy asks, "Didn't you know the flame was hot, that it would hurt you?" the child will probably say yes. She understood she wasn't supposed to play with fire, but until she actually burned her finger she didn't really "get it" -- it was just an abstract concept.
Of course, another possibility is that it was a way for Joss to show us that River was crazy. After all, only a crazy person could understand something but not comprehend it... right?
By the way, the English language is unique in the extent to which it has multiple words to express the same idea. It's the only language that requires a thesaurus. It has adopted words from many different languages, which means there are synonyms galore that can take on slightly different connotations and shades of meaning. It would be very difficult to write a line like this in any other language (without using a word from a second language).
For those interested, "understand" comes from old English words that literally meant "to stand under". "Comprehend" is from Latin words meaning "to grasp together".
Edit to add: Oops, I just thought of possibility number...
3. Maybe River is saying she understands that guns are dangerous, but she doesn't really comprehend what's going on -- i.e. why's everybody making a fuss? After all, she knows how to handle guns. Which is true... as we know but the crew doesn't.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME