1943
POSTED BY: RiveR6213
UPDATED: Monday, June 18, 2007 20:37
VIEWED: 7581
PAGE 3 of 5
No. And here’s why: while Buffy may have a certain talent with killing various monsters, we know that she is not bullet proof. In fact, at one point she almost died because of a single pistol shot to the chest. Now back to the past, the Third Reich, Buffy vs. the German military? Result: Buffy shot to pieces by MP-40 submachine fire.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by WTE:
My understanding is that the death camps weren't really widely known about until after Germany'd been defeated. If I'm wrong, sorry,
No, you're right, which is just one of the several gripes I have with "Why We Fight" in AtS S5. Lawson makes mention of changing his mind about the military and the war once he'd "seen what the Nazis were doing." He doesn't specifically mention the death camps, but I've always gotten the impression that that's what he meant... which would make it a goof, because there's no way he should've been able to know about them in 1943.
As far as the rest of the discussion goes, I'd say that the Slayer(s) of that period would have tried to intervene with any occult nastiness Hitler was messing around with that could've caused trouble, and left the non-paranormal business to the Allies and their militaries...
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by WTE:
My understanding is that the death camps weren't really widely known about until after Germany'd been defeated. If I'm wrong, sorry, but if I'm right, that would give another reason for no slayer having intervened.
In fiction-world, of course. I realize there's no real slayer...
HONKS
The full knowledge of these camps and what was going on might not have been known until after the war, but there had to be rumors. Train loads of people don't just shuffle off in the night and no one says anything. It wasn't as if we had absolutely NO idea one day, and then WHAM!....we find out what was going on. That might be the case for some , like soldiers in the field, the general public, but I'd bet some intel types had at least 'some' idea in Britian and in the U.S. of what was going on.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
The full knowledge of these camps and what was going on might not have been known until after the war, but there had to be rumors. Train loads of people don't just shuffle off in the night and no one says anything. It wasn't as if we had absolutely NO idea one day, and then WHAM!....we find out what was going on. That might be the case for some , like soldiers in the field, the general public, but I'd bet some intel types had at least 'some' idea in Britian and in the U.S. of what was going on.
But even if they did (which is probably true), it's not like they could have done a lot more to prevent it, right? They were already at war, after all, and if they could have defeated Nazi Germany sooner, they would have done so even without this humanitarian incentive.
So it's really irrelevant if they knew or not.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Is anyone else thinking about Captain America when they read this thread? It could just be me. Still, that was a superpowered individual who fought the good fight and did win some battles in a fictional universe, but was more important as a symbol everyone could get behind.
Banners, avatars and other fun stuff at www.desktophippie.com
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
It’s a basic philosophical question. If you know your country is doing something like this, what do you do? Morally it seems simple, but in practice though, not so much. The sad truth is that most Germans did know what was going on. For a long time, historians simply accepted the German account that they didn’t know, probably out of sympathy for the Germans, but recent studies are telling a very different and disturbing story. Most Germans probably knew quite clearly what was going on, even if they didn't have all the details.
Totalitarian states have never been able to completely hide the ‘disappearing’ of even a few thousand, the notion that the Nazis did or could have hide the systematic extermination of millions is just laughable. And they didn’t try to. If you go back and read the newspapers and listen to the political speeches of the time, it was painfully clear that the Nazis were not trying to hide it. Sure, the government didn’t go into details about the death camps, but that probably had more to do with international secrecy then with keeping anything from the German people. Within Germany, the newspapers under state control worked diligently to desensitize the people to the murder of Jews and build a justification for murdering them. The same justification mass murderers always use, the Jews were powerful, mean subhumans who are the root of all of Germany’s problems. They were systematically murdered by the state and then their estate was auctioned off to the German population. But history shouldn’t be too hard on the Germans. In a state where the transportation of people into incinerators is a government run industry, it’s not easy to complain, because most Germans were terrified that they would be next. And if you were caught sympathizing with Jews, Nazi response could be swift and total. The Nazis got away with it, not because the Germans didn’t know, but because they didn’t know who to trust.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Good point, Finn.
By the time the Germans must have become increasingly aware that the Jews weren't just being transported away to live elsewhere in ghettos, I suspect most of them were too worried about the war and their own fate and family to care about what was a defamed minority.
It's cold and selfish and can't be justified away into anything else, but it's also quite sadly human nature.
It tends to make me angry when people pretend that resistance and noble behavior would have been the obvious and logical or even easy choice, and that they would never have acted that way. Because it blinds them to their own weakness and makes just these things possible.
If there is anything I positive I take away from having that German heritage (and it's a hard thing to grow up with on one's national concience when you weren't even there) it's that I never have to fool myself with regards to what people are capable of. Or not so easily capable of. It saddens me that lots of Germans still have trouble recognising this as a gift.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Well said all of you, and beautifully put AgentRouka, but as interesting as the topic is we are way off course from the original theme. I have to admit though, you guys are an interesting bunch.
-River
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:The Bush Administration has learned by example. Don't hide what you do, control perception.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Most Germans probably knew quite clearly what was going on, even if they didn't have all the details.
If you go back and read the newspapers and listen to the political speeches of the time, it was painfully clear that the Nazis were not trying to hide it.
Imagine trying to make torture of prisoners legal in the sixties or early seventies- it couldn't have been done. It would have sparked demonstrations-a-plenty, and angered the country.
Now it merely pisses off some human rights groups.
I'm shocked by how plainly Bush & Co have had their way, with such minimal resistance- even now.
In my world, they'd have been in jail by now...but my world is a fantasy one where truth and justice prevail.
Political drive-by Chrisisall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Being totally aware of the threat that this thread will quickly end up in Troll country, do you think that history would have been changed in a dramatic way if Buffy Summers had been trapped, drugged, and tied up by some of us, and then sent back through time in a time machine that we created; back to Germany 1943?
Do you think that Buffy Summers having come out of her drugged state and having in a certain period of time realized that she was in Germany 1943 that she could have made a serious difference in the war?
Could a super powered woman have made a difference in a time of chaotic insanity that was world war 2?
Weird topic I know but you decide.
-River
NO, because the only way to really change things would be to kill Hitler, and some of the others before they set things in motion.......and Buffy doesn't kill humans. But maybe if we pissed Faith off and sent her back.......
---- plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose
Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre, Owner of a too big Turnippy smelling coat with MR scratched in the neck (thanks FollowMal!)
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
FORSAKEN original
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME