Warning Signs
POSTED BY: Jongsstraw
UPDATED: Sunday, April 29, 2007 19:28
VIEWED: 14532
PAGE 2 of 15
Quote:No, but I have heard people justify it, by saying that social chastising or hurting people feelings is exactly what causes mass murderers. That’s not true. If it were true, I would be a mass murder, because people have socially chastised me and people have hurt my feelings. Why am I not a mass murderer? Simple, because social chastising or hurting people’s feelings is not what causes people to go on psychotic murdering rampages. I’m not suggesting that it is okay to do it, but it is not what creates murderers, and it should never be accepted as a justification.
Originally posted by SergeantX:
That shouldn't be hard. I've never heard anyone say it is acceptable. But of course that won't make the problem go away.
I’ll read the article later. I downloaded it to my thumbdrive, but right now I have some business to attend to tonight.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
If it were true, I would be a mass murder, because people have socially chastised me and people have hurt my feelings.
But that doesn't follow logically. That's like saying throwing lit matches out the car window don't cause fires, "'cause I did it once and nothing happened!"
You can't honestly be arguing that subjecting people to systematic psychological abuse doesn't make them more likely to lash out. You really don't see a connection there? It's not about 'blame'. It's about looking at the situation rationally and recognizing that we're propagating social institutions that are unnecessarily cruel.
This is 'Revenge of the Nerds', but it's not a bad comedy. It's sick reality.
I figure you'll be against this. Let's just ignore why it's happening and forge ahead on with more of the same. It's the same logic that's fueling the 'war on terror'. If people are cracking under the strain of systematic abuse, we should just turn up the volume. If the terrorists are lashing out because they hate us interfering in their culture, then we should invade. If the geeks are freaking out from alienation, we should work harder to identify them and subject them to more humiliation and shame. This kind of logic is so screwed up I don't even know where to begin.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Why, out of two horribly abused children, does one become a monster, and one become an EMT ? why ?
That is a big question that always plagued Doc Perry, and he means to find out - CITIVAS and the ChildTrauma academy are, quite literally light-years ahead of anyone else in this topic of research.
http://www.childtrauma.org/aboutCTA/CT_Academy.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_D._Perry
This man has my utmost respect, and above all, knows his stuff, period.
Quote:
It's about looking at the situation rationally and recognizing that we're propagating social institutions that are unnecessarily cruel.
Right to the meat of the matter, Sarge, many a times, what we DO to kids in the name of turning them into adults fit for the nightmare america calls society, I am surprised more of em don't turn out like this guy, and very surprised that any of em come out of it without serious trauma to their psyche.
I don't fully subscribe to the "Blank Slate" theorem, becuase genetics and heredity traits do factor in, as well does environment - but to be honest in over three decades I have yet to see a single young child without a better value system and moral scale than most adults, and what do we do about it ?
Instead of treasuring their humanity, we crush it out of them in any way possible, while presenting as heros and role models they very most sociopathic people, upholding the most horrific behavior as examples, and constantly bombarding them with what "Gets you ahead" in corporate america.
We're human beings, and every time we deny what we are, we become less than what we should be - it is that very denial of our humanity that is leading us to a crisis point.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Finn, you fail to make the important distinction that you are not like everyone else. Everyone has hardware, software and firmware and AFA hardware: all traits are created on a contiuum. Babies are born with a neurochemical profile to begin with. And then early life experience- for example, painful illness, abuse, neglect, or constant fear and anxiety- permanently enhance the fear/ pain pathways. (So, it's not the case that early exposure "toughens up" kids. On the contrary- early abuse causes children to be more anxious, angrier, and more gullible than children raised in benign circumstances.)
Through experience I've come to the conclusion that most children can be raised by most people. BUT there are those three standard deviations from the norm that need special circumstances. And then there are those five standard deviations from the norm that need good drugs because they may may not have the hardware/ firmware to allow them to develop acceptably.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
It's really too bad that they couldn't have hung a " WARNING: ABUSIVE " sign or label around Cho
Yes, because that would have *really* helped decrease his feelings of rage at the rest of the world. Not to mention how it would encourage others feeling the same way to get the help they need.
Copied and pasted from the other thread dealing with this issue:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=28261
"I've been making light of this subject so far, but there is a serious issue here - the stigma associated with mental illness. Mental illness is not talked about. No one wants to know about it. No one wants to deal people who have it. No one who has it wants to admit they have it and no one related to them wants to admit it either.
Being mentally ill can lose you friends, make you a stranger in your community and get you fired from your job - all because people automatically assume it makes you dangerous or unhinged. When people think of mental illness the first thing that comes to mind is acts like the shooting at Virginia Tech - violent, mindless acts that leave people dead and wounded.
But that's only one tiny fraction of the reality. Statistically, one fifth of the Virginia Tech student population has or has had a mental illness. Hell, that'll go up now that the campus en masse will be facing shock, depression and possibly a few cases of PTSD. Reactionary comments about "locking up the crazies for the public good" won't do anyone any favours. It's lumping all mentally ill people in one big, black box and shoving them out of the way where they can't be seen. It trivialises a hugely complicated issue. And it's unacceptable.
People facing mental health issues need to know that there are people they can trust. They need to know that they will be treated with dignity and respect. They need to know that their cases will be evaluated fairly and that they will have a voice in their treatment. If they don't believe those things, they won't get help. Would you go to your doctor if you thought he might tell your boss you were unstable? Would you visit a psychiatrist if you thought social services were going to take away your kids?
Cleary something went horribly, tragically wrong with the care (or lack thereof) Cho was receiving. It's awful and it's something that needs to be looked at. But comments like this aren't going to help the situation one iota. They're just going to make it even harder for mental health practitioners to do their job."
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Why, out of two horribly abused children, does one become a monster, and one become an EMT ? why ?
That is a big question that always plagued Doc Perry, and he means to find out - CITIVAS and the ChildTrauma academy are, quite literally light-years ahead of anyone else in this topic of research.
http://www.childtrauma.org/aboutCTA/CT_Academy.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_D._Perry
This man has my utmost respect, and above all, knows his stuff, period.Quote:
It's about looking at the situation rationally and recognizing that we're propagating social institutions that are unnecessarily cruel.
Right to the meat of the matter, Sarge, many a times, what we DO to kids in the name of turning them into adults fit for the nightmare america calls society, I am surprised more of em don't turn out like this guy, and very surprised that any of em come out of it without serious trauma to their psyche.
I don't fully subscribe to the "Blank Slate" theorem, becuase genetics and heredity traits do factor in, as well does environment - but to be honest in over three decades I have yet to see a single young child without a better value system and moral scale than most adults, and what do we do about it ?
Instead of treasuring their humanity, we crush it out of them in any way possible, while presenting as heros and role models they very most sociopathic people, upholding the most horrific behavior as examples, and constantly bombarding them with what "Gets you ahead" in corporate america.
We're human beings, and every time we deny what we are, we become less than what we should be - it is that very denial of our humanity that is leading us to a crisis point.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
Well said. I totally agree with you on this point.
-River
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Quote:That’s right. Throwing a match out a window does not cause fires. A lit match landing on some kind of dry tender might cause a fire, but throwing it out the window does not. Furthermore, you’re just assuming that there was fire. In other words, you’re taking the word of a fruitcake as fact. In reality, however, it’s probably much more likely, that this Cho character went ballistic because HE’S the asshole, not everyone else, but HE'S blaming it all on his innocent victims.
Originally posted by SergeantX:
But that doesn't follow logically. That's like saying throwing lit matches out the car window don't cause fires, "'cause I did it once and nothing happened!"
It is not the social chastising that creates mass murders; that is such juvenile logic that it is absurd. A wouldbe mass murder must have something else wired wrong in his head to begin with. It is absolute nonsense to say that social chastisement could possibly justify mass murdering for anyone other then mass murderers to begin with.
And I don't know if I'm like everyone else or not, but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people have experiences social chastisement and not gone on killing sprees because of it.
I'm not willing to admit to this desperate demand that mass murderers are the victim's fault, which is not only logically absurd because it is so blatantly obvious that the correlation is wrong, but it is kind of mean. Ironically, if you take that logic to is extreme, it’s somewhat circular. Claiming that it was the victim’s fault that they were murderered is a pretty harsh bit of social chastisement, so therefore how many mass murderers have been created as a result of that? The logic is so juvenile in it’s oversimplicity that it doesn’t make any sense.
Also I still having read your article, but I’ll try to get to it soon.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
It is absolute nonsense to say that social chastisement could possibly justify mass murdering for anyone other then mass murderers to begin with.
ayup, I figured that's what you'd hear. Pay attention. No one is saying the actions were 'justified'. Got it?
Quote:
And I don't know if I'm like everyone else or not, but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people have experiences social chastisement and not gone on killing sprees because of it.
*sigh*... we went over this. The vast majority of times someone drives drunk, no one gets hurt. Guess that makes it ok, eh?
Quote:
I'm not willing to admit to this desperate demand that mass murderers are the victim's fault...
Listen, it's obvious who's 'fault' it is. If he were still alive, we could put Cho in jail for life and I'd be all for it. We could even put him in a cage somewhere in some public place so folks could walk by and throw rocks at him or something.
But, once again, that's not the point. The point is that we ought to be looking closely at why our society is producing more and more of these tragedies. I've been to public schools and I've watched my kids try to suffer through it. I pulled them out and I think it's the best decision I've made as a parent. The survival of the fittest mentality that supports the current model makes me sick.
Anyway, I'll admit that the causes of tragedies like the VT massacre are varied and complex. But I can't completely dismiss the pain and frustration cited by the kids who lash out. Yeah, they're nuts, they're anomalies and they've probably got loads of other problems that have nothing to do with their environment. But where's the sense in pushing them to the breaking point? Where's the sense in putting any of our kids through such idiocy?
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:If by “idiocy” you mean social chastisement, the sense of it depends a lot on local cultural and “territorial” clicks. Social chastisement is not necessarily a bad thing, and some of it is important to maintain the norms and competition in our society, which whether we will admit it or not, we all want. In some cases, it may go too far, especially when it becomes motivated by social class, physical or mental abnormality, gender or ethnicity. But that’s all something completely different from and has no relevance to the act of going into a crowd of strangers and randomly killing people you don’t know or have probably never met. These two things, the mass murder and social chastisement, have no relation.
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Where's the sense in putting any of our kids through such idiocy?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
These two things, the mass murder and social chastisement, have no relation.
Of course they do. The fact that Cho and so many of these shooters cite their social frustrations clearly relates them. All too often its the same sort of grievances behind their attacks. You can say it's not a good reason to kill innocent people (and I totally agree), but it doesn't change the fact that there's a very real relationship between their frustrations and the murders. It's dumb to ignore that.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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