What if Jasmine had been Allowed to Reign over Humanity?

POSTED BY: RiveR6213
UPDATED: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 04:02
VIEWED: 7475
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ODDNESS2HER

Thursday, April 19, 2007 11:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jwhedonaddict:
Very true!

One that has stuck with me is "If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do." The quote I use the most to pull me out of my 'funks'.

I used to have it taped to a mirror and I would always be asked what it meant. I took it down because I got tired of explaining it so much...I mean, isn't it obvious?! I know it by heart now anyway!

"Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing."--Angel
"In Joss We Trust."

I also like Joss' quote: "Remember, always be yourself. Unless you suck." I have that one displayed in my office.

RIVER6213

Thursday, April 19, 2007 11:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by oddness2her:
River, what I think you're overlooking is the fact that if Jasmine had succeeded, Humanity would have ended. There might have been shiny, happy, human-looking "meat puppets" walking around, but that's all. Being angry, sad, selfish and cruel is part of the human condition, as is personal choice. I know it's tempting to wish that a powerful, parental figure would swoop down and magically make all of our problems go away, but that's a trap. Confronting and working to solve our own problems is where our true strength lies. As Angel said, "Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing".

*Sigh*

Okay, here we go...

I don't think that Jasmine for myself in any way represents any sort of "parental" figure that I can think of. This may be what it means for you and that's okay, but I don't see it that way if that's alright with you?

And as far as I'm concerned our so-called free will has been nothing but a complete pain in the ass and has been the source of human history being written in blood. Sure when we aren't killing or making each other miserable we come up with nifty inventions, and occasionally develop certain new vaccines that prevents certain terrible diseases, but on the whole it seems that our default mode is making each other miserable. If we aren't taking something away from someone we are hoarding things that others need. If it isn't that its slavery, or war, or crime, or mean kids at the playground, or a husband that cheats on his wife or a child lying to his parents, or a President is lying to the people. This has gone on, and on, and will continue to go on because that is the nature of human kind; we grow by creating our own misery and then over come it just to create more misery and over come that...It goes on, and on, and on forever.

I would have no problem with a creature like Jasmine showing up and making humanity dizzy with happiness even if it eliminated the development of humanity. If humanity is eventually turned into sheep over a period of time due to Jasmine's spell, well, Song long humanity and thanks for all the fish is what I have to say about it, but the fact is I won't because I would be under the spell of Jasmine also, so no such thought would enter my mind.

Personally, I can't think of a better end for humanity. I guess it beats going out in a nuclear war.

-River

RIVER6213

Thursday, April 19, 2007 11:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
It's an argument that's older than you think, River. It goes all the way back to Genesis.

For many, The Garden of Eden is the story of the evolution of human consciousness. When Adam and Eve were in the garden they existed in a state of blissful ignorance. They had everything they needed and wanted for nothing, but they were not aware of themselves.

When they ate the apple from the tree of knowledge, they "saw that they were naked." They achieved conscious awareness for the first time. Hence they were expelled from the garden. Once they had become consciously aware, they could never be ignorant again. Instead of being blissfully happy, they became aware of hurt, suffering, need and everything else that comes with the human package.

That's the price we pay for human awareness - the loss of paradise, of ignorant joy. Is it a bad thing? I have to say no. If we were all still in the "garden" then sure, we'd be happy, but we wouldn't be what we are. We wouldn't really be human at all.

Banners, avatars and other fun stuff at www.desktophippie.com

I wouldn't really call the current humanity "Human beings" because that is not what we are. I really don't know what we are but human beings is the wrong word for us.

I'll take the ignorant joy for $2,000 Bob Barker!

-River

ODDNESS2HER

Thursday, April 19, 2007 11:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Quote:
Originally posted by oddness2her:
River, what I think you're overlooking is the fact that if Jasmine had succeeded, Humanity would have ended. There might have been shiny, happy, human-looking "meat puppets" walking around, but that's all. Being angry, sad, selfish and cruel is part of the human condition, as is personal choice. I know it's tempting to wish that a powerful, parental figure would swoop down and magically make all of our problems go away, but that's a trap. Confronting and working to solve our own problems is where our true strength lies. As Angel said, "Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing".

When I referred to Jasmine as "parental", I meant that she was offering to take care of us and make all of the decisions while we went out and played in the yard (so to speak). If it means something different to you, fine.

Meanwhile, your assertion that you want a Jasmine to take over is kind of ironic, since you're saying that you would choose to have no choices whatsoever.

*Sigh*

Okay, here we go...

I don't think that Jasmine for myself in any way represents any sort of "parental" figure that I can think of. This may be what it means for you and that's okay, but I don't see it that way if that's alright with you?

And as far as I'm concerned our so-called free will has been nothing but a complete pain in the ass and has been the source of human history being written in blood. Sure when we aren't killing or making each other miserable we come up with nifty inventions, and occasionally develop certain new vaccines that prevents certain terrible diseases, but on the whole it seems that our default mode is making each other miserable. If we aren't taking something away from someone we are hoarding things that others need. If it isn't that its slavery, or war, or crime, or mean kids at the playground, or a husband that cheats on his wife or a child lying to his parents, or a President is lying to the people. This has gone on, and on, and will continue to go on because that is the nature of human kind; we grow by creating our own misery and then over come it just to create more misery and over come that...It goes on, and on, and on forever.

I would have no problem with a creature like Jasmine showing up and making humanity dizzy with happiness even if it eliminated the development of humanity. If humanity is eventually turned into sheep over a period of time due to Jasmine's spell, well, Song long humanity and thanks for all the fish is what I have to say about it, but the fact is I won't because I would be under the spell of Jasmine also, so no such thought would enter my mind.

Personally, I can't think of a better end for humanity. I guess it beats going out in a nuclear war.

-River

RIVER6213

Friday, April 20, 2007 12:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by oddness2her:
Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Quote:
Originally posted by oddness2her:
River, what I think you're overlooking is the fact that if Jasmine had succeeded, Humanity would have ended. There might have been shiny, happy, human-looking "meat puppets" walking around, but that's all. Being angry, sad, selfish and cruel is part of the human condition, as is personal choice. I know it's tempting to wish that a powerful, parental figure would swoop down and magically make all of our problems go away, but that's a trap. Confronting and working to solve our own problems is where our true strength lies. As Angel said, "Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing".

When I referred to Jasmine as "parental", I meant that she was offering to take care of us and make all of the decisions while we went out and played in the yard (so to speak). If it means something different to you, fine.

Meanwhile, your assertion that you want a Jasmine to take over is kind of ironic, since you're saying that you would choose to have no choices whatsoever.

I wouldn't mind if some crazed creature showed up and brain-washed the hell out of humanity. I choose to not give a damn about the whole show, and would become a dizzingly happy little mindless minion until I end up being turned into "The River McNugget meal"

Hail Jasmine!

-River

RIVER6213

Friday, April 20, 2007 12:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by EvilDinosaur:
That's why I loved that season, cuz at the end you're not sure who won, the good guys or the bad guys. I mean Jasmine offered world peace, the only price was a little free will. Is that price too high? or is it reasonable for what she was offering?

What I always like to think about is that if Jasmine had been allowed to spread and hadn't been stopped, what would have happened between her and the first evil. Because remember thats the same time season 7 of buffy was happening.

It would have been an interesting showdown between Jasmine and the First, because world peace doesn't really fall into the first's plan.

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

This I nevered considered.

-River

SERENITYINSCOTLAND

Friday, April 20, 2007 9:14 AM

In asking what human free will does other than cause suffering, I would turn to another passion of mine - mountaineering history.
Some people would say dying whilst mountaineering is a singularly pointless death. One is basically putting oneself in a life or death situation with no tangible reward. George Mallory and Andrew Irvine, in 1924, set off from 26,000 feet to attempt to be the first men to summit Everest. They were lost in the clouds and nobody knows if they were successful or not. To me, this says everything about free will. They chose to set off that day of their own free will, to test themselves against unthinkable challenges (they were wearing tweed!) and to achieve nothing that would directly benefit anyone. Can you imagine Jasmine 'sanctioning' such a thing?
Mallory, upon questioned by a reporter why he was trying to climb Everest, famously replyed "Because it's there." However, one of his less well known, but far more eloquent, replies went "For the stone from the top for the geologists, for the knowledge of the human endurance for the doctors, but above all, for the spirit of adventure to keep alive the very soul of man".

RIVER6213

Friday, April 20, 2007 7:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SerenityinScotland:
In asking what human free will does other than cause suffering, I would turn to another passion of mine - mountaineering history.
Some people would say dying whilst mountaineering is a singularly pointless death. One is basically putting oneself in a life or death situation with no tangible reward. George Mallory and Andrew Irvine, in 1924, set off from 26,000 feet to attempt to be the first men to summit Everest. They were lost in the clouds and nobody knows if they were successful or not. To me, this says everything about free will. They chose to set off that day of their own free will, to test themselves against unthinkable challenges (they were wearing tweed!) and to achieve nothing that would directly benefit anyone. Can you imagine Jasmine 'sanctioning' such a thing?
Mallory, upon questioned by a reporter why he was trying to climb Everest, famously replyed "Because it's there." However, one of his less well known, but far more eloquent, replies went "For the stone from the top for the geologists, for the knowledge of the human endurance for the doctors, but above all, for the spirit of adventure to keep alive the very soul of man".

Beautifully put, but I can't really see the whole point, and maybe that is a good thing because from my point of view humanity uses its free will to do damage. I'm not saying all of humanity, but I am saying that enough humanity exercise their free will that affects millions of lives and cause untold suffering.

It's a real good thing that we live on a planet where everyone has differing opinions, experiences, and points of view. There is no right or wrong to my thread that I started; everyone's opinion and thoughts on the subject are valid.

Still, I would rather give up my free will and not have a choice. It's like the JudeoChristian religion where they believe that God wanted to have a creation that chose to worship him rather than them being like his angels and other creations that were "hard-wired" to worship him. These creations of his have no choice but to worship him. They would shrivel up and die if they tried not too.

I rather be like that, stuck with the knowledge as surely as the sun rises in the morning that Jasmine, or a Jasmine like enity was my whole purpose for living. It would make life easier and simplier for me if that were the case; I would have no worries and so what if I would end up as brainless as a marine plant (some say this has already happened) I would be happy right up to the day I died. I would never be able to think beyond the parameters of the spell that was put on me. I would not be aware that I was hard-wired or brain washed; I would be a happy little minion wondering how I could please Jasmine, or a Jasmine-like enity. That would be my whole point of living.

Putting it even more simply, I rather not do my own thinking for me anymore; I'm bored with the whole affair of free will.

-River

SHINY

Friday, April 20, 2007 9:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Putting it even more simply, I rather not do my own thinking for me anymore; I'm bored with the whole affair of free will.

I know of a few cults that have openings...

It may be that some people would prefer blissful mind-controlled ignorance, but most would not...and Jasmine didn't exactly give people a choice, did she?

---

I don't need a gorram back-spaceship driver!!!

RIVER6213

Friday, April 20, 2007 9:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Putting it even more simply, I rather not do my own thinking for me anymore; I'm bored with the whole affair of free will.

I know of a few cults that have openings...

It may be that some people would prefer blissful mind-controlled ignorance, but most would not...and Jasmine didn't exactly give people a choice, did she?

---

I don't need a gorram back-spaceship driver!!!

Too bad I missed the whole Jim Jones thing. I wonder what flavor of Kool-Aid they served on that fateful day? I hope it was Goofy Grape.

-River

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