RE:
POSTED BY: Lance
UPDATED: Monday, April 9, 2007 13:57
VIEWED: 13046
PAGE 5 of 5
Quote:
Originally posted by SAVEWASH:
(Ironically, despite my alias and the fact that I was crushed when Wash died in the movie, I agree with those who respect the writer's work. It's his/her story and no one else has the right to dictate how it goes. If you want a certain story, please feel free to tell it yourself, but don't tell anyone else how theirs should be written. You don't have to like the result, of course, but those writers who aren't hacks deserve latitude. [end of speech])
I'm going to have to call bullshit on this one as this only comes into play when one writes for oneself. But, when one writes for others, then one must act accordingly.
A quote from Joss from the Serenity DVD:
"""
... in the DVD sales, the booths at the Cons run by fans, the websites, and the fundraisers. All the work the fans have done have helped make this movie. It is, in an unprecedented sense, your movie.
"""
So Joss, by his own words, has admitted that this movie was done b/c of significant fan involvement. Yet, he turns around after our very hard work to thank us by *killing* /two/ characters. IMO, this is a slap in the face, pretty much "biting the hand that feeds."
And even when it comes to how they died, well Wash's death just didn't make sense.
Book sure (though I still irritated about that). His town got swarmed by Alliance bend on killing them. Hard to survive that kind of thing. The rational behind the attack even made sense.
But, Wash. That was just stupid. I'm sorry, but if you're running for your life from Reavers, you're not going to sit there grinning like a dumbass and repeat some dumbass phrase, more calm cool and collected than those sitting right beside you who both survived Serenity Valley (i.e. *very* battle hardened).
And that weapon that killed him! I mean come on. Shooting giant spears!?!? Yah sure, the glass that'll protect them from the vacuum of space, space garbage, etc, will buckle like tin foil from a slow moving object. Sure.
At any rate, we've probably all heard the above before whether you agree or not. Just getting fired up as I expected the typical Joss dialogue, good writing in general, etc from Serenity and I didn't get it (IMO). Bah, I'm done rehashing the past again.
----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
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Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Because we all have to admit, at least to ourselves, that Joss' ability to kill that main character had already surfaced before that. An ability that we know he liked doing.
I didn't know! I've never watched Buffy or Angel, and I would argue that assuming his audience is familiar with his style would put Joss and his creations at a disadvantage. There are still some people (lots!) who haven't been exposed to his techniques, and they're the ones who need to be grabbed/moved. The loyal fans will stick around regardless ;)
Don't make faces.
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You know, this has been fascinating to read. First, as a writer (and I've even published, though strictly small stuff as of yet), there is the perpetual debate for whom the author "should" write. Now, we can write for the masses, i.e. Robert Jordan (no offense to those who like his work), or they can write to their hearts (H. G. Wells).
Pick any listing of the top 50 Greatest Books of this or the last century, and in every one of them, tragedy strikes.
That doesn't mean that those same stories made much money until after the author's deaths (often the case) but in every case I know of, the audience has acknowledged that the author had the right to write what they choose.
Even in popular fiction, take Harry Potter. The books rose in an entirely unprecedented fashion to a fame that authors will be hard-pressed to match or exceed. Rowlings is having a hard time matching herself. It's taking longer and longer to get the books out, because she had to struggle to please the audience--I don't envy her. The stories are suffering as a result (IMHO).
Yet, through everything Firefly, I never got the sense that Whedon catered to anyone. Certainly there would be a never-ending debate of who we'd pick to die. Frankly, Wash and Zoe are my favorites and I understand completely why he did it.
Yes, Wash sat there and made his "Watch me soar" line. We were buying it right until the moment the ballistae hit. So, it isn't that the scene was "silly" we just didn't like the end result.
Oh, and having been in the Air Force and seen a bit of combat...people do the DUMBEST stuff imaginable...and it makes perfect sense. And, good people do die. It's what makes the tragedy more potent.
It's Whedon's story. I watch what he does. Sometimes I agree with it, sometimes I don't. But he never fails to get a reaction from me. That's the mark of an outstanding storyteller, and one who does NOT pander for the masses. Otherwise, firefly would be like Trek, where everyone is healed and happy at the end of every episode.
Also,he ain't making nearly as much money as you are fantasizing about and personally, I didn't die. Frankly, if this has killed you, then you are a touch more fragile than I think you want to portray.
"They don't like it when you shoot them. I figured that out myself." ---Mal (War Stories)
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If anyone thinks they could have told a better Serenity by doing things differently, then I challenge them to write it. Not just little changes, like Mal's suspenders or Kaylee and Simon's sudden bedding, but (for example) killing Inara, or not killing anyone, or having a completely different bad guy.
Take the frustration over Wash's death and channel that into a story, instead of hanging around this thread and its negative energy.
Pretty please? 
Quote:
Originally posted by gorramgirl:
Even in popular fiction, take Harry Potter. The books rose in an entirely unprecedented fashion to a fame that authors will be hard-pressed to match or exceed. Rowlings is having a hard time matching herself. It's taking longer and longer to get the books out, because she had to struggle to please the audience--I don't envy her. The stories are suffering as a result (IMHO).
It's not just you. The first one was the best.
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I hate it, but I have to laugh at Wash's death.
Come on, a wooden stake through the heart? sheesh!
--WhoDied
_______________________
You used to have fire in your heart.
Now all you got in there is that big honkin' sword. How's that feel, champ?
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Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Well, one could "break the mold" by (using your examples):
- _not_ having River come to terms with issues
- _not_ having Mal and Inara "make up"
- _not_ having Simon and Kaylee "get together"
But, doing it in a Joss-y way.
Basically, leave it all up in the air. I know that audiences in North America aren't used to this, but it was an option. One that would have been just as surprising as what he did do.
I disagree both with your assessment of North American audiences and the way you posit my examples as equivalent comparisons to a death. You're right in that the "conclusions" (for lack of a better word) I named, and you repeated, are not obligatory for a writer, but nor is their absence shocking. Rather, having Mal and Inara's relationship left up in the air, or River still crazy, would NOT have created tension during the climactic fight, nor would it (IMO) have carried a great deal of weight in the underlying meaning of the film. It would have left some people irked, others pleased, and some ambivalent, but it wouldn't have drawn anyone into the film the way a flying stake does.
Basically it comes down to the fact that Joss envisioned this movie as an epic storyline, and an epic has to incorporate tragedy and (ideally) suspense.
Don't make faces.
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Hi I'm beau and a bit if a newbe.. I love firefly and serenity and however I think agree with FOLLOWMAL If every one is rel then surely he has accomplished the purpose of the series and film.
I was devestated when he was killed as it was totally quick and unexpected and then watching the series and his and zoes relationship (guttin) 
I feel that If there is no other film or series that The killing off of some is like Joss' way of clearing up... also if it continues he will probably do a typical Joss and bring them back somehow!!
Beau xx
Jayne quote: I kill a man in a fair fight or if he annoys me or If im gettin paid.. mostly if Im gettin paid
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I love the role playing game to if not got it check it out
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Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I'm going to have to call bullshit on this one as this only comes into play when one writes for oneself. But, when one writes for others, then one must act accordingly.
Okay, but who is Joss writing for? You? Me? The guy in the green shirt over there? The woman standing next to him? Someone else? Joss can't write for all of us at the same time. As you can see, there are some fans who have accepted Wash's fate, even if they didn't like it, so was Joss not supposed to be writing for them? How's he supposed to know what the majority of his fans want, and if he spends all his time worrying about that, how is he supposed to write something that's not crap? A writer will never be able to please everyone who reads/sees his work. If everyone hated it, that would be one thing, but obviously everyone didn't, so Joss doesn't deserve the claim that he betrayed his fan base.
"We need to keep our heads so we can ... keep our heads."
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I think Joss IS writing FOR everyone. That's what storytellers do. He's just not dictated BY the audience. He writes from within and like anything, hopes it isn't a major flop. If you work very, very hard, you are gratified to hear that there are people who love it as much as you do. That's a storyteller. Not in a vacuum, but not like a puppet.
The bigger and better the story, the bigger the audience (hopefully). Now Joss' story was great, but tragically cut short---heh, there's a painful death for you. And what did we do? Cry? Perhaps. Mourn? Probably. Rail against the heavens? Certainly. Pick up our Browncoat butts and keep with the story? Absolutely. This sight is evidence of that. And perhaps, evidence of just how great the story is.
"They don't like it when you shoot them. I figured that out myself." ---Mal (War Stories)
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