RE:
POSTED BY: Lance
UPDATED: Monday, April 9, 2007 13:57
VIEWED: 13046
PAGE 4 of 5
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You might be at a disadvantage from never being a buffy/angel fan. For those of us who followed Joss through those shows and right on to Firefly/Serenity we all knew what Joss was capable off. Major characters were never safe in those shows. We came into Firefly/Serenity knowing that Joss will likely kill the characters we've grown to love.
That makes some sense. I guess I'm lucky he didn't get that far in the Firefly series before it was cancelled. It didn't seem like he was so bloodthirsty in those fourteen episodes.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lance:
I've read quite a few great stories where no one dies. So where the idea comes from that if no one dies it doesn't "ring true," I don't know. It's not true, it's made up, anything can happen including a happy ending. If we really love the characters and not just the temporary visceral experience, then they should live. Just as we want the people we live with in real life to live. I would hope no one wants to see one of there friends or a family members die just so that they can experience the agony of lose. That would be ridiculous and sick. I think that wanting or easily accepting it happening to a beloved character, just for shock value is also ridiculous.
Hi, Lance. I very rarely jump in to threads like this, as I am not sure there is anything that will relieve your feeling of betrayal. I'm sorry for that, because pain is bad.
But at this point, I have to put in my two credits....
One of the things that drew me to and kept me there about Joss' writing on Firefly was how real the characters felt to me. I fell in love with Mal, fully. I wanted to be Zoe, brave and true. I loved Wash and wanted to hug him. Simon brought out the mother in me and I wanted to tell him you're doing the right thing. Kaylee made me happy and I wanted to take her shopping. River broke my heart and I cried often for her. Inara fascinated me and I wondered what her secret was and why she didn't just tell Mal she wanted him. Book made me feel safe for them all...somehow. Jayne.... well, Jayne.
If the characters felt real to me... then I had to give Joss credit for this.
I've read great stories where folks do die.
Most great stories have folks in them that die. Dying is our greatest sorrow, our greatest gift- if we die for someone else to live, dying is our greatest challenge. Just as living defines us, dying does as well. Dying happens in real life. Dying happens in the 'Verse. It follows that it should.
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This brings me to another idea. Human beings are "built" to believe stories. That's all we had in the beginning, the story teller telling legends around a fire. This was how information and experience was passed on. The ability to picture these things in our minds and seem to experience them is what makes us able to read a book or watch a movie and be pulled in without even realizing it. But I think these abilities should not be toyed with by the story teller. We put our trust in them and they should respect that and not use that trust to harm us emotionally.
I agree with you, storytelling is in our blood. In my minds eye I can picture early man and men after who told stories around the fire. They contain bravery, fighting, war, love, sacrifice, pain, leadership in the face of invincible odds and death. Since we began telling stories our tales have included death. Death of the brave warrior who bags the bison. Death of the brave warrior who fights to the death to save his village. Death of the maiden who dies bravely for her people. Death of .... shall I go on? I could list titles, but I don't think I need to. Life is full of death. Our stories are too.
Storytellers owe me ( since I can only speak for myself) nothing but their story. I'm grateful for them. I love stories and the ones containing death teach me something about the honor with which I wish to die.
From here to the eyes and the ears of the 'Verse!
http://www.geocities.com/browncoatsignalcorps/index.htm
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Storytellers owe me ( since I can only speak for myself) nothing but their story. I'm grateful for them.
Yes. Just so.
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Portland's Charity 'Serenity' Screenings
JUNE 22 & 23 @ the HOLLYWOOD THEATRE
Benefitting Equality Now and the Women's Film Initiative
http://serenitynow.pdxbrowncoats.com/
PS: Send Me To Serenity LA
http://www.dropcash.com/campaign/theonetruebix/send_me_to_serenity_la/
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Lance, as you know by now you are not alone in some of your feelings about Serenity. I first saw it at one of the pre-release screenings on May 5, '05, and there was about a week afterwards where I wasn't sure I even wanted to watch Firefly again, much less the movie. But that feeling passed.
Since then, I have watched the movie at least twelve more times, and the series three more times complete. Firefly is still the best television show ever created, in my not so humble opinion, and even though I am not one of those who consider Serenity the best film ever, it is the best one I've seen in this decade at least.
Give it some time, think about it some more, let us know in a week or two if you still feel the same way.
Keep flying.
wo men ren ran zai fei xing.
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Since when was Joss ((Or any of the cast)) a multimillionaire? Yes he's been successful, but not necessarily commercially so. Buffy and Angel were a boon to him, but Serenity hasn't made as much as it will, neither did Firefly ((Like it had a chance)). As far as the story issue here, Joss gave him a good death. Yes, I felt cheated when he died, but I think it's like Mal at Serenity valley. Life goes on. Wash may yet come back, as on this forum there've been some really interesting and workable methods for his ressurection. And no offense to anyone here, but I think Joss is a better storyteller than all of us. He'll do what he'll do, whether you like it or not is your bag. But as I say above, it was a good death. He gave them all a chance, and without him, they'd never have made it. His sacrifice saved his crew, and it gave Miranda and all her people's deaths meaning. Though we may not like a portion of a story, I think the real question is, did you like the film as a piece of work, or no?
"I'm not going to say Serenity is the greatest SciFi movie ever; oh wait yes I am." - Orson Scott Card
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Quote:
Originally posted by theonetruebix:
Why do I feel like I'm reliving the Save Wash debacle all over again
Wow, I'm a debacle now? Nobody told me!
(Ironically, despite my alias and the fact that I was crushed when Wash died in the movie, I agree with those who respect the writer's work. It's his/her story and no one else has the right to dictate how it goes. If you want a certain story, please feel free to tell it yourself, but don't tell anyone else how theirs should be written. You don't have to like the result, of course, but those writers who aren't hacks deserve latitude. [end of speech])
"We need to keep our heads so we can ... keep our heads."
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I don't fully grasp the immensity of this topic...in terms of the emotions, well yes of course. But this t'aint the Elvis Lives crowd, maybe the Eddie Lives crowd. Elvis is dead...witnessed, photographed, autopsied, etc etc etc ...ok, yes ..maybe Arnold the Eraser "fixed" it all, but it's still deranged fringe non-thinking. Eddie...well he actually did live, 'cause he drove off a bridge & nobody ever saw him for 20+ years...But Wash is like Elvis...tragically dead!. Joss wanted it, Joss wrote it, and most importantly Alan supported it. I don't know 'bout the rest of the BDH's feelings 'cept Nathan's from the DVD extras..he was cool with it too....maybe some of you here know how the others felt? And of course, there's the universal love, respect, and admiration for Joss Whedon by all the 'coats, and as they say, don't f*k with love....so all I can say to those stuck on Wash's fate...snap out of it!
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Quote:
Originally posted by marina:
...
how do you surprise them? How do you keep an audience who, for the past 90 minutes, thought they knew (or had a vague idea) of what would happen and how it would be wrapped up (e.g. River comes to terms with her issues (which they expect to be revealed) and relationships are repaired (Mal/Inara and Simon/Kaylee jump instantly to mind)) glued to the screen for the final climactic scene?
You break the mold. You do something you don't have "permission" to do. You make the viewers question their assumptions and expectations.
Well, one could "break the mold" by (using your examples):
- _not_ having River come to terms with issues
- _not_ having Mal and Inara "make up"
- _not_ having Simon and Kaylee "get together"
But, doing it in a Joss-y way.
Basically, leave it all up in the air. I know that audiences in North America aren't used to this, but it was an option. One that would have been just as surprising as what he did do.
Of course, this would have changed the ending and events leading up to it. But, I for one would rather have Joss doing something different. Because we all have to admit, at least to ourselves, that Joss' ability to kill that main character had already surfaced before that. An ability that we know he liked doing.
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I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Different strokes for different folks. You might be at a disadvantage from never being a buffy/angel fan. For those of us who followed Joss through those shows and right on to Firefly/Serenity we all knew what Joss was capable off. Major characters were never safe in those shows. We came into Firefly/Serenity knowing that Joss will likely kill the characters we've grown to love. I personally like his style of storytelling. Not everything is a happy ending. I like never knowing what's coming next and Joss is an expert at that.
Yah, I watched Buffy from day one. Never took to Angel though. The wife is making me watch Angel in its entirety and my god. So... very... painful. But, I digress.
Your point only lives until we start to expect Joss to kill off characters. Which, as it happens, is the case. So, at this point, doing so must come at an advantage well beyond shock value. Which, isn't the case here. Also, not a happy ending does not necessarily mean killing off someone. Personally, I find that a *very* cheap way to do it.
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I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrowncoatSandinista:
His sacrifice saved his crew, and it gave Miranda and all her people's deaths meaning.
What movie did you watch? Wash's death didn't save the crew. He was killed *after* his role in "saving" them i.e. he did _not_ die in an act to save people, he died *after* an act that saved people. These are two *very* different things.
Quote:
Originally posted by BrowncoatSandinista:
did you like the film as a piece of work, or no?
As an action movie it was good. As a Firefly movie it was... not.
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I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
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