Firefly River vs. Serenity River : fanfic portrayal
POSTED BY: EmpireX
UPDATED: Thursday, March 8, 2007 02:01
VIEWED: 30380
PAGE 9 of 10
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Originally posted by jetflair:Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Let's say, for the limited scope of this thread, that there are only two loves: Love, and the stuff surrounding making love. The part where my heart sank to my feet, is where it dawned upon me that the very fabric of Firefly is uprooted on a much more fundamental level even than I initially realized. In a nutshell (and somewhat over-generalized, to make the point): Firefly is about Love, vs. the majority of fanfic being about making love.
Why does having this sink in dishearten me so? Because, well, I think the magic which is Firefly is seated in being the opposite of pretty much everything else in Hollywood: it's about Love, and not the making love. The former is about having deep, tender, ineffable feelings of affection for people, and letting those feelings be real enough to do right by your teenage crew member, even if you don't figure the percentage. Or even if it costs you.
So I'd say, Take one teenage girl. Put her in close proximity to a charming, funny, handsome, protective war hero. And then... make it about Love, not making love. Like our genius man Joss did. I'll look forward to reading that. Don't expect to find me near the water cooler, though.
Another wonderful and very thought-provoking point. You just made me realize what it is that is probably the most challenging in the writing of my own fanfic. That non-sexual, non-sentimental, genuine love is one of the most precious elements of Firefly, and the elusive element I'm trying to capture.
It's incredibly difficult, though, because written expressions of love tend to come across as either unrealistically sentimental for the 'verse, or as sexual. People are so accustomed to looking for the sexual element in everything that one has to be almost explicit in saying "that's not what I'm getting at!"
My story is a POW drama, and Mal and Wash are locked up together. Twice now I've told people the story outline and recoiled when they said "Oh, so it's slash?" NO! In the same story, Mal hugs Zoe in two seperate scenes, very tender, loving, and completely non-sexual scenes, and I had someone complain that I was writing Mal/Zoe fic.
So as a writer, it's very difficult to portray love that will not be construed as sexual in nature.
At its core, my story is about Mal recovering from a series of devastating events and being able to do so, being able to cope and to remain the relatively whole, caring person he is in the series, thanks in part to the unexpected love and caring of the people around him.
I think on the screen, that would be so much easier to portray without words, with the use of those little silent moments and looks and smiles. Because in the written word, with my limitations as a writer, the essense of that love captured by Firefly is the most elusive and precious quality I could imagine.
Jetflair!
You're so right: the Firefly Love is a most elusive and precious quality. So elusive even, I've argued on occasion, that it escapes many. :) Seriously. I've personally witnessed people be totally awestruck by Firefly, yet unable to express why. The essence of real Love, captured so brilliantly in Firefly, is so rare, that while it still resonates with the core of people's soul, of course, often, on a more conscious level, the why of their excitement eludes them. They just know they Love it. And want more.
So, I'd say, be gentle to yourself when you write fanfic. :) Because, really, it's extremely difficult to get it right. If it makes any difference, during the course of reading this thread, I had the idea of maybe writing my own fanfic then, and asked a good mutual friend of ours, FollowMal, who I could read first, to learn the trade, so to speak. She recommended yours as the creme-de-la-creme. Is that a commentary on you? Why yes, I think it is. :)
You know, in the other forum, I'd probably be unable to suppress the urge to call you Cap'n. I'd look silly doing that here, for certain. :) Don't mean I can't follow
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Originally posted by Platonist:
Leave the arcing to Joss!
Joss clearly states in the Director's comments that Mal is "teaching" River (an underage girl) a life lesson and uses the piloting metaphor to speak on the nature of love. Misinterpretation of this scene sullies its' beauty and Joss' words.
Justifiying using it as a springboard for a future romantic(sexual) relationship in fan created fiction is misguided because it compromises the growing trust between two of your main characters.
Please don't beg for comments. You already have mine.
May I just say that this was beautifully put and spot on. You've really captured the point of that scene here.
It always hurts to see it "dragged" into a sense of romance and sex because it takes away so much of the purely human beauty and profundity.
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Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
All I'm saying, is that regardless of what he might do about it, Mal is a very likely candidate for a crush. And the responses to that situation will be interesting to write. Particularly as he is an honourable and decent man.
The question that mostly concerns me in this scenario - and I'm not speaking about your fic in particular, as I haven't read it, but rather in general, and since you write Mal/River - is what in the 'verse would make Mal interested in River.
That River could develop as crush is no surprise, lots of girls start flirting with their father figures in a playful way, or develop crushes on authority figures or distant music/movie stars because it's safe, because they likely won't ever respond.
But Mal? What - beside a "hot young body" - would be the draw for Mal? He's so much older and more experienced and beyond so many things that River still has to go through.
I'm honestly curious why Mal would return a romantic and sexual attraction to someone whose father he could be.
It baffles me!
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I can tell you haven't read my stuff, since I am not a M/R shipper per se. 
And my point was Mal's reaction to being crushed upon, with all variations of panic.
What ever attracts two people? All I've done is set out River's side. If you go through the BSR, there are all permutations of relationship, most of which are admittedly horrible. In concept, as well as execution.
I'm aware from previous comments of yours that you would never even consider reading my stuff. Post-BDM and canon though it is, it also contains an OC crew member, designed to be the voice of the 'normal' 'Verse, a la Wash. And - horrors! - she's married to Jayne. I'm exploring that as a valid relationship to throw the other relationships into relief; two people of roughly the same age with various life experiences behind them, as opposed to 'Young Love' (S/K) 'Thwarted Love' (M/I) or the beginnings of adult feelings (R). It was important to Joss that there was an example of a happy adult relationship on board, and after he kebabed Wash, I felt there should be a replacement. And there are excellent reasons why it wouldn't be M/I.
Mal is an emotional basket-case, bless the man. But that's a whole other thread. I can write you something convincing and honest, but you would have to bother to read it and the back-story to get the nuances.
And the argument you just sat out against M/R, is exactly the argument I find against Jaylee or Rayne, myself.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
I can tell you haven't read my stuff, since I am not a M/R shipper per se.
Oh, I'm sorry, I just assumed that you favored a mutual attraction, since you mentioned Mal in your story being jealous of some boy flirting with River in some other thread somewhere (or maybe even here). Anyway, I wasn't inquiring about your story, but rather the general idea, but I see was overly presumptive, sorry.
So you don't actually think he would return her feelings? I guess, I'll have to find someone else to ask some time. :)
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And the argument you just sat out against M/R, is exactly the argument I find against Jaylee or Rayne, myself.
So would I, incidentally. :)
Jaylee less vehemently than anything involving River, since Kaylee has five years on River, but.. yeah. :)
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Well, hopefully when I write and post it up, it will all make sense. 
River is bright and sweet and honest, and she's no longer a child. But yes, half his age and crew - is going to weird Mal out. I figure that in his time in service, he must have been the recipient of crushes before. But he isn't that old. The age gap is less than the Grissom/Sara one in CSI, for example. Or the very convincing Holmes/Russell relationship in the Laurie King books.
What happens when he meets somebody who loves the Black and Serenity as much as he does? Someone who can understand his pain? The fact it's wrapped up in a youthful package is the bad bit. But if Joss can do freaky mindjobs on our assumptions...
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Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
But he isn't that old. The age gap is less than the Grissom/Sara one in CSI, for example. Or the very convincing Holmes/Russell relationship in the Laurie King books.
To me, it's more the age contrast inherent in that age gap that causes the disconnect. Say, 35 to 55 is far less monumental than 16 to 32, 17 to 33. The former are two mature adults, the latter are separated by a very distinct phase of maturation that one has gone through and the other not yet, and not for years to come.
When she comes onto the ship, River is pretty much exactly half Mal's age, and I just have a really hard time picturing a scenario where Mal could overcome that gap, that initial paternal attitude, without losing those qualities of honor, responsibility and maturity that I like in his character.
But to each their own. :)
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Well, I have to say...I regard that as a challenge.
Keep watching the skies. (Or the BSR)
I don't see that it has to be a happy-ever-after, line drawn under it and final scenario, anyway. And I liked the idea posited earlier in this thread that Mal's age makes his paternal mean old man stance a bit of a joke. I'm not sure how old you are, but I'm the same age as NF, so that colours my perceptions.
btw, age gap in the King books? They first meet when she is fifteen and he's fifty-four. And it works, since tha author takes time to show the character maturing over the next few years.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
And I liked the idea posited earlier in this thread that Mal's age makes his paternal mean old man stance a bit of a joke. I'm not sure how old you are, but I'm the same age as NF, so that colours my perceptions.
A paternal attitude is just that, a question of attitude, since Jayne, for example, doesn't have a streak of that in him and is at least Mal's age.
Mal leadership style is very personal, it's closely tied into this naturally paternal streak and displayed already in the first scene we meet him, his pep talk to soldiers his age or only a bit younger. It's not necessarily tied to the "mean old man" stance, but a real aspect of his character.
Plus, with the age gap and actual age-constellation of Mal and River, paternal feelings really are a more natural response and not a joke at all. It'd be a sign of immaturity in a thirty-something man if he felt more like a peer to an emotionally damaged teen half his age than an adult source of support.
So, I don't see a discrepancy there that would discredit Mal's paternal feelings as artificial.
Quote:
btw, age gap in the King books? They first meet when she is fifteen and he's fifty-four. And it works, since tha author takes time to show the character maturing over the next few years.
As you point out - it apparently can be done, in fiction and real life. I just don't, personally, see it in Mal or River, nor do I think it's the rule with relationships of that age constellation to be healthy.
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The problem that I have with M/R or M/OC is that the writer has the laborious task of deconstructing the relationship between Mal and Inara in a convincing manner. This is not an easy writing objective to meet. It is usually achieved by writing Inara (post BDM) as a calculating sinister character, in a contrived plot, breaking Mal's heart at every turn and task. I somewhat follow along objectively with great anticipation until I lose interest because I start to realize that the story ceases to feel like Firefly once the chemistry of M/I is gone and not regained.
In these fics, especially M/R, Mal tends to act like a fickle jilted 16 year old that has lost his intended prom date to his best friend. Last I looked Mal doesn't play jacks on the hull floor.
Then I start asking myself, with respect for the writer, would losing Inara, for whatever reason, send Mal flying into the arms of another, that just conveniently happens to be taking on all of the attributes of Inara, that Mal found so intriguing. Replacement Inara? Hasn't that been done already?
I'm not saying that I'm the biggest M/I shipper on this planet, but I do think they have the best romantic chemistry that the show has to offer. It was obviously important to Joss, the creator, he carried their "love's strength" theme soundly into the movie. I think if the show or trilogy would have continued they would have had a long and involved relationship (they've already shared so much). A tragic ending... perhaps, but one based on true mature love with them making all the sacrifices that they would deem necessary to sustain a beautiful and rare feeling.
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