Firefly River vs. Serenity River : fanfic portrayal
POSTED BY: EmpireX
UPDATED: Thursday, March 8, 2007 02:01
VIEWED: 30380
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I really got to agree with RomanceGuru here. River is a very complex and interesting character to both watch and write about, so tackling the objective of writing River accurately becomes a lesson in patience and nuances. At least I think so personally.
When it comes to relationships involving River, I swing Rayne. Now that might make me pro-pedophilia in some people's eyes, but I think that if the author took the time to explore how River and Jayne (or River any other BDH but Simon, frankly) could and would hook up, I think some mighty spectacular work could be done. River's relationship options are somewhat limited by both her role as a member of Serenity's crew and the fact she is both still somewhat mentally unstable and in possession of psychic abilities. That and the fact that River, even before her time at the Academy, was a rather interesting person to interact with due to her extreme intelligence and her related creativity which could be a tad bit off-putting to people just meeting her.
While I support River hooking up with Jayne or another BDH or an OC (the latter two options being dependent on how the author spins River’s entrance into a relationship), I do recognize that River’s only 16 in the series and 17 by the time of the BDM, and do have qualms with someone having her enter into a sexual relationship pre-movie. Friendship or the beginnings of something I can accept with some literary sweetener, but full-fledged sexual relationships? Even I draw a line. But saying that River can’t be relationships with basically anybody is really what does a disservice, since she’s being denied a chance to experience an integral part of human existence because of some third-party declaration.
Two examples I can recall off the top of my head for how to do stories where River enters into a relationship well and effectively are Lattelady6’s Voices and Visions and TamSibling’s A New… trilogy of epic tales. In both cases, the authoresses have taken the time and effort to explore how a post-BDM River who’s saner and emotionally more mature, but still trying to deal with catching up with the stuff from her missing teenage years, reacts to developing feeling towards a much older and “problematic” Jayne Cobb, who’s not exactly come out of the BDM emotional or physically unscathed either.
BEB
Literature has shown us some of humanity's greatest achievements; history, some of our greatest failures -- Alun Lewis
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Quote:
But saying that River can’t be relationships with basically anybody is really what does a disservice, since she’s being denied a chance to experience an integral part of human existence because of some third-party declaration.
Very well put Blueyedbrigader!
I’m also a Rayne aficionado, but that unfortunately can turn into a whole other debate.
I also disagree with this estimation:
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“The same thing for rapefic. A rape or attempted rape should not be used as a catalyst for romance. I'm fairly certain that when a woman has been raped, having any kind of sex would be the last thing on her mind, even if it is with a certain handsome captain/doctor/mercenary.”
Everyone deals and handles the trama rape differently, and unfortunately, it’s a part of life. I’m in no way saying that it’s romantic, but it is an issue that deserves, as any, to be explored. Obviously, I do not know all the details of the fic in which you are referring, but to say that every woman reacts the same by closing herself off to future sexual relationships is just not true.
A well-written romance involving River is more interesting to read for me than any other character-centric fic’s because of the many different obstacles there is to explore and overcome. To literarily vindicate something that is considered taboo is wherein the beauty and art of fanfic lies.
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"Hell is coming to breakfast"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Romanceguru:Quote:
But saying that River can’t be relationships with basically anybody is really what does a disservice, since she’s being denied a chance to experience an integral part of human existence because of some third-party declaration.
Very well put Blueyedbrigader!
I’m also a Rayne aficionado, but that unfortunately can turn into a whole other debate.
I also disagree with this estimation:Quote:
“The same thing for rapefic. A rape or attempted rape should not be used as a catalyst for romance. I'm fairly certain that when a woman has been raped, having any kind of sex would be the last thing on her mind, even if it is with a certain handsome captain/doctor/mercenary.”
Everyone deals and handles the trama rape differently, and unfortunately, it’s a part of life. I’m in no way saying that it’s romantic, but it is an issue that deserves, as any, to be explored. Obviously, I do not know all the details of the fic in which you are referring, but to say that every woman reacts the same by closing herself off to future sexual relationships is just not true.
A well-written romance involving River is more interesting to read for me than any other character-centric fic’s because of the many different obstacles there is to explore and overcome. To literarily vindicate something that is considered taboo is wherein the beauty and art of fanfic lies.
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"Hell is coming to breakfast"
I work in an environment where we do get the occasional rape victim. Sometimes we are the first person they've told about their experience. They are never happy about it.
They haven't necessarily given up on ever finding anyone to ever be happy and have sex with, but it's usually not first on their list of priorities either.
It may take months or years, or they may have a completely unexpected reaction and lash out by becoming extremely aggressive sexually in an effort to demonstrate their own control over their bodies.
I have yet to meet anyone who's been raped that said "gee, if they hadn't done that we might never have gotten together and we're SO HAPPY now!".
Catalyst for romance? I'm thinking not so much.
Sex does not equal love. Rape is about power and hatred.
She wasn't "asking for it". It did not "get her hot". It was not "good for her". Don't ever kid yourself that it was anything other than humiliating, degrading, and traumatic.
No means no. Period.
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Like I said, I don’t know the details of the fic so it really depends on circumstances.
If the person is raped by her supposed suitor, then in no way should a relationship evolve from such places.
If the person is raped by an alternate character, and the victim later forms an attachment to a person he/she feels safe with, then it is plausible. Especially if that character was prominent in helping the victim recover from the trauma.
I only know of one fic that comes close to dealing with “rape”, but I wouldn’t call it that so much as a delicate situation. In this fic, the two in question are put in a situation in where they have to consummate as result of imminent life or death circumstances. The sex involved is mutual, but is not done out of enjoyment and is some what traumatizing for the male especially. This event inspires the two who wouldn’t have originally sought each other out to find solace in one another by opening up and connecting on a deeper level. I think the author dealt with the very difficult subject matter very sensitively, and it made for an interesting perspective on how two people could come together.
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“Hell is coming to breakfast.”
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When all else fails, look to Joss Whedon:
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You take people, you put them on a journey, you give them peril, you find out who they really are. If there's any kind of fiction better than that, I don't know what it is.
Firefly is a Sci-Fi drama. Joss wanted drama and havoc, andhe wanted to be the one to raise the big issues. Everyone has strong characters in Firefly; River perhaps even more so because she is so dynamic.
And I think ultimately, if there was a season two…or three...or four, there would have been relationships. Powerful, emotive relationships that would echo through the bulkheads. And then Joss would figure out some way to kill it (Wash).
But it would have been interesting to see what would happen to River. Because she is ‘damaged goods’, it would have been destructive and quirky at the same time.
Having said that, River has trouble acting normal in any situation. Yet along bunking up with another crewmember.
Although I don’t agree personally with some stories ethically; I respect the authors rights to write these fanfics, and understand thoroughly the hardships it takes to write one and post it on the Internet.
As long as its done reasonably tasteful and adds to the plot of the fanfic (bad example, River: Oops I dropped the soap…”), and doesn’t go against the Geneva convention. Preferably, River is at legal age too.
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Accept that some days you are the pigeon and some days the statue.
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in my work available here
http://www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=15035
http://www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=14967
http://www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=14929
which takes place after the series and is a replacement for the movie i can use aspecs of both
how do you find my characterisation of river?
Play with the best die like the rest
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Quote:
Originally posted by Romanceguru:
I think it has a lot to do on how we perceive River. As stated in the threads above, some see her as “weak” and therefore unable to make the choice to enter into an adult relationship with a man, especially a much older one. I do not see her as such. It saddens me that just because River is at times disturbed (and we know this less so after the BDM) that she cannot be allowed the same desires as any other girl/woman..”
“Vulnerable” and “weak” ain't the same thing. I have yet to see anyone call River “weak” (and no, “the weaker party” don't count; in that context it really just means she's the more vulnerable of the two).
Also, “willing” is a slippery slope. But first things first. In the BDM, lest we forget, River is still a seventeen-year-old. Regardless of the fact that there's some indication that she's on the mend, even if she were fully healed, she's still a barely legal teenager: not something for a thirty-five year old man to fool around with.
No one, to my knowledge, has ever advocated that River, just because she's a mite whimsical in the brainpan, should never be allowed to have relationships. But to be involved with a boyfriend of her own age is quite a stretch from grappling with, say Mal, who's been a father figure for her -- even should she have a “crush” on him and appears every bit “willing”. Heck, I'm a man, and I ain't sly, and even I can readily see how a teenage girl might have a crush on Mal. After all, what's not to love? He ain't weak, he's honorable, a hero, a protector (not to mention, quite a stud to boot). But see, all these glowing qualities in Mal should precisely prevent him from taking advantage of her! And, frankly, I don't think for a moment he would. Like I don't think Mal'd ever go after Kaylee in that fashion, either. In his father role, Mal will ere protect River from overzealous folks being “romantically” interested in her (read: lecherous humps).
Though I have seen and known enough of the 'verse to be well aware that I shall perhaps stand alone in my creed, and that it will be well if I subject myself to no worse charge than that of singularity, I am not therefore deterred from avowing that I regard over-thirty crew members unsuitable suitors for River, and that, as such, far as I'm concerned, the sanctity of River's “untouchability” remains, uhm, untouchable.
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"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam
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I'm with Asarian on this.
No one says that River is weak. But vulnerable and not up to a full on romantic relationship with a man twice her age? Definitely.
For one, being through significant trauma, being a potentially (and actual) remote-controlled killer, having to sort through the loose floating thoughts of other people... those are things that can kill innocence, but they do not necessarily make a person mature and adult in any way, emotionally or psychologically. And we don't know just exactly how recovered she actually is at the end of the movie. How should the Miranda secret have suddenly cured all the chemical imbalances and surgically damaged bits of her brain?
Then, even if none of those things applied, River is 17. How many 17-year-olds do you know who are ready to have serious sexual and romantic relationships with "actual" adults?
The reason why there's such a thing as age of consent and even a judgment on whether someone is capable of giving consent, that's not because people under a certain age or maturity level don't want sex and love, it's because they are not up to dealing with the potential consequences. The hormonal control, the emotional attachment, the ease of confusing sexual desire and honest affection, not to mention all the aspects of sexual responsibility and reproduction.
River is highly intelligent, but by no means experienced, mature and capable of dealing even with her own life, let alone that of an adult lover. Intelligence ultimately means next to nothing. It's the common sense that makes people fit to live on their own and River isn't overtly blessed with that. Yet. Just like most 17-year-olds, not to mention mentally traumatised ones.
Pairing her with someone who is actually her age, is decidedly less creepy, simply because she would meet a lover on equal terms, learn WITH someone who doesn't have a vast amount of experience to his advantage over her. I can see that as being genuinely sweet.
But River with someone who could be her father? Genuinely shudder-worthy. What kind of man would want to be with someone who would be a malleable student more than an equal partner? Creepy ones.
There are rare exceptions of young women that age being strong and mature enough to handle that, but most aren't, and I don't believe that anything that has been done to River justifies the idea that she is.
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When you refer to someone as the “weaker party”, how can you not be inferring that they are weak?
In speaking in terms of vulnerability, post-BDM River (which the majority of authors and readers feel is the more appropriate setting off stage for a relationship) is regaining her mental competence. To further this point, she has been given the responsibility of co-piloting the ship. If River is being allowed to hold the lives of others in her hands, she most certainly can “pilot” her own life.
We are talking about a fictional world that is very different than the easy civilized life in which we lead. I would imagine that most people grow up fast and develop maturity far faster than the young girls we know today, much in the way that you can't compare the maturity of United States 16 year old to that of a third world 16 year old. That's certainly true of River. There's probably not many mysteries of the universe left for her to discover. While we often use RL experiences as setting off points and or to bring a touch of realism to our work, to hold the Firefly verse to the same societal standards as ours definitely shows a lack of progressiveness in thought and imagination.
Conversely, old-fashion views are intermingled within this society and you should keep in mind that would have included much older men being paired with younger women, so in that respect it would not be seen as “creepy”.
Intelligence and wisdom are two separate things, both of which River has shown a lot of. You can't arbitrarily say that experience changes a person and not apply that to River. Given her experience, she's years older in wisdom than anyone on that ship, Mal and Zoe included.
Painting River as a traumatized victim, a fragile inexperienced flower and mentally incapable of making her own decisions is not doing her character any justice. She is strong, a fighter who has had to overcome much in her life and has succeeded. Her life experience combined with her extreme intellect makes her much more capable of entering a mature relationship then the average teen.
That in itself has nothing to do with whether a certain relationship is good for her or not. Everyday women make mistakes concerning men they choose to be with, and no one ever tries to take away their right to decide who to date next. Commonsense is gained through experience. How can you expect her to gain that sort of knowledge if you deny her the experience of it?
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"What kind of man would want to be with someone who would be a malleable student more than an equal partner? Creepy ones."
Equality. What relationship is ever equal in terms of experience and emotional readiness? We are here to learn from one another, where one is weak, the other is strong and the compensation allows for a relationship to flourish.
Since I ship Rayne in particular, I will argue that if anyone should be vulnerable in the pairing, it would be Jayne. River can read his mind and know exactly what he's thinking. She's also about 50 times more intelligent than him. Exactly how hard would it be to pull the wool over River's eyes when it comes to Jayne?
It’s not about taking advantage, its about human connection. Love is often blind to the restraints imposed on it. It holds no bounds.
I don’t suppose I can change opposing views on the matter. Just know that there is room for more than one school of thought, especially in the multihued world of fiction.
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"Hell is coming to breakfast."
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I think, once you wade deep through all the arguments and thoughts expressed about this subject, one gets to the core of the matter of personal experience. By the end of the BDM, River's still only 17 years old and not really healed. In fact, assuming she will ever be healed completely is being either criminally naive or ignorant about River and where she is in her life.
Logically, River needs to test the waters before realizing that she wants to be with Jayne or Mal or anyone who's older than her by more than a handful of years. A point that has been raised more than once in fanfic where River's in a relationship with someome older (BDH or OC) is that what does River have in common with most teenagers? On top of her pretty much immesurable intellect and remaining psychosis, River's a lot farther behind emotionally than a lot of people in the same age bracket and that any person she chooses to be with in a relationship suddenly becomes a target for the Alliance or the Academy.
I could get all geeky and use my university education to point out that there's tons of evidence of relationships existing between middle-aged men and young women. Now...a good chunk of them happened during less "enlightened" period of human society, but the concept isn't completely foreign.
Really? I understand the points made by both sides here and I support their existence as valid ponderances about a story universe we all have a vested interest in...but I gotta wonder how the hell we got any ground to stand on after only 14 episodes and a feature-length movie that was supposed to be a second season of television lasting about 22 hours? Plus, we seem to forget it's Joss Whedon that created this character...the same man who's gone and done some rather shocking and confusing stuff that has had fans up in arms before. We have no real clue what Joss had in store for River, so I gotta wonder how this debate would go if we had more canon material to work off of?
Literature has shown us some of humanity's greatest achievements; history, some of our greatest failures -- Alun Lewis
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