The Saddest Calvin and Hobbes Sketch Ever
POSTED BY: 6ixStringJack
UPDATED: Saturday, March 3, 2007 14:12
VIEWED: 22603
PAGE 7 of 16
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Ultimately adults DO have 'control' of 'their' children. But it would be a fool of a doctor, or a parent, to 'treat' a child and not ASK them how they think it's going. Now if you have a child that's raging, breaking walls and so on, and no reason-based approach works; or if they're having seizures; or hallucinating or whatever is very far out of the norm; then you do need to do something, whether they like it or not.
But for the in-between-ers - Why NOT ask? Is it better this way ??? Or this way ??? Who would know better than the child?
Agreed. But, I'd limit asking the in-betweeners for the purposes of finding the correct treatment, not whether they are treated or not.
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
As for 'fixing' society - I'm ALL for that. If 10% of your population is on mood 'scrips at any one time, your society is seriously effed up.
Very true.
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I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
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Quote:I pulled the number out of my *ss. But depression is not a limited to "a small number of people". The real numbers are:
Given the enormous implications and work load that adjusting society to a small percentage of people would bring I think the choice is fairly obvious... I have to ask where you got that number from, I know a lot of people and almost none of them use anti-deps, the only one that I can think of who does...well he's really f'ed up (or was I don't hang out with him anymore), even 6ix would approve of loading him up on drugs.
major depression: 9% of adult population in any one year
dysthymia: another 8% in any one year
Depression has a major impact on productivity, parenting, overall health, drug use, crime, and -of course- suicide and accident rates. And it's not just something endogenously wrong with a small subset of people because it varies by nation, class, sex, head injury etc. so it's clearly linked to external factors
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uid
s=11980797&dopt=Abstract When unemployment goes up, so does depression. When stress goes up, so does depression. BTW- the USA is one of two developed nations with VERY high levels of stress.
In fact, it's almost exactly like obesity and diabetes, both of which are predicted to have major impacts on the economy. A subset of people may be more vulnerable to developing diabetes, but in a mileu that virtually guarantees obesity (time stress, dangerous/ unwalkable environment, physically undemanding jobs and entertainment, junk food) those thresholds will be exceeded. It's funny, because I hear so much about the genes involved in obesity and diabetes, but genes don't explain why people have SUDDENLY become so much more obese in the last 30 years. Our genes didn't change overnight! But, like depression and other psychological ills, it's SOOOO much more profitable to develop a pill to help functional people cope in a dysfunctional society rather than change society.
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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6ix,
Don't take offense at these folks. They simply have a different mindset.
There are solutions and there are solutions. People who have no problems being dependent on medication ultimately have trust and faith in "the system" created by govt and the pharm industry. They trust the solution provided by this system, and see nothing wrong with dependence on it anymore than a child would see anything wrong with dependence on a parent.
Then there are people like us, who see meds as a bandaid solution forcing us to become dependent on a system we have no faith in. Because we do not trust govt or corporation, we find their solutions limiting and suspect. We look for alternative, more permanent solutions.
This is something I have learned long ago. You can't convince someone who believes NOT to believe. They will not become disillusioned unless they suffer injury or death because of the system themselves, and even then, they are likely to make excuses for it. It is the nature of faith.
We are like medical/government atheists. We can state our lack of faith in medicine and government, but we'll never be understood by those who do believe. They will always attack us. We just have to agree to disagree.
Can't Take My Gorram Sky 
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Nullius in verba. (Take nobody's word.)
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6ix, CTS- Your level of skepticism is high. That's fine. But if your skepticism is unbridgeable by ANY level of evidence then you're delusional. So- are you such committed "do-it-yourselfers" that you refuse ALL intervention? Antibiotics? Blood transfusions? "Natural" supplements? Appendectomy? Dentistry? Glasses? Or is your skepticism limited to vaccines (CTS) and psychotropic drugs (6ix)? If you accept some intervention ( example- natural supplements produced and sold by corporations with little government regulation) but not others, where do you draw the line and for what reason?
EDIT: I understand your skepticism. I think I made a pretty good argument for changing society instead of changing people. I think acceptance of "the way things are" is way too high. But I don't believe in people struggling individually in a society that whips people forward and hobbles them at the same time.
---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
There are solutions and there are solutions. People who have no problems being dependent on medication ultimately have trust and faith in "the system" created by govt and the pharm industry. They trust the solution provided by this system, and see nothing wrong with dependence on it anymore than a child would see anything wrong with dependence on a parent.
only slightly true, it is true that the mentally ill don't know they are mentally ill. Your forgone assumption is that every one of them is innocently following whatever "feels good". Most medications (besides ritalin) don't make you feel good. They just get you back up to how most people are when they are not mentally ill. Except for 6string, to get where he is you'd have to take a cranky pill.
Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky: Then there are people like us, who see meds as a bandaid solution forcing us to become dependent on a system we have no faith in. Because we do not trust govt or corporation, we find their solutions limiting and suspect. We look for alternative, more permanent solutions.
Ya know what...I don't know you, but if you feel that way, you're probably not mentally ill, and don't know much about the daily struggles someone like that faces. I suggest to become enlightened, go down to the pediatric ward at your local mental hospital. After that you'd probably sing a different tune about zero psychaitric for kids, also you're not a doctor... are you?.
Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky: This is something I have learned long ago. You can't convince someone who believes NOT to believe. They will not become disillusioned unless they suffer injury or death because of the system themselves, and even then, they are likely to make excuses for it. It is the nature of faith.
I have a sister who is bi-polar. Off her drugs she acts like River. On her drugs she is a productive happy, functioning person. They get her back to square one, AND she needs them, as a result she is dependant, but it's a hell of alot better than KRAZY WHOO HOO.
Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky: We are like medical/government atheists. We can state our lack of faith in medicine and government, but we'll never be understood by those who do believe. They will always attack us. We just have to agree to disagree.
Nobody is attacking you...and I DO understand all that you say...I just don't agree with it. There is a common delusion amongst schizophrenics, the delusion that they are right, everyone else is wrong, and the government is out to get them. You know what...stay just the way you are...I hope you will never understand mental illness, because that would mean you or someone you know will become ill, and I wouldn't wish that on anyone
"You can believe your eyes...or you can believe me." -Groucho Marx
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@CantTakeSky:
I honestly think that you haven't really read what people have written here. No-one here is say drugs, Drugs, DRUGS!!! They are the answer!
What I (we?) are saying is that when people need them to function then they are the way to go (or at least a very very good idea) i.e. some people have chemical imbalances that require correction through meds.
This is rather a middle ground. This is what I (we?) are talking about.
What you and 6 seem to be saying is that under no circumstances should anyone enter "the system" and become a "slave to the pharmaceutical companies". That drugs are an abomination!
This is a very extreme view.
Please note that just because someone buys something from a company or even requires it, it does NOT mean that they are slaves nor does it mean that they are mindless. As someone has suggested, perhaps you should actually talk to someone who is mentally ill. And actually take what they say at face value instead of dismissing it. Which, if you've actually read what we've written here, is exactly what you're currently doing.
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I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:I pulled the number out of my *ss. But depression is not a limited to "a small number of people".
Given the enormous implications and work load that adjusting society to a small percentage of people would bring I think the choice is fairly obvious... I have to ask where you got that number from, I know a lot of people and almost none of them use anti-deps, the only one that I can think of who does...well he's really f'ed up (or was I don't hang out with him anymore), even 6ix would approve of loading him up on drugs.
Um, I thought we were still talking about ADD\ADHD, depression is a bit of a different animal. Depression is definitely (for a lot of people) a social issue that we can and should address.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I honestly think that you haven't really read what people have written here. No-one here is say drugs, Drugs, DRUGS!!! They are the answer!
What I (we?) are saying is that when people need them to function then they are the way to go (or at least a very very good idea) i.e. some people have chemical imbalances that require correction through meds.
This is rather a middle ground. This is what I (we?) are talking about.
This is exactly what I've been saying for the last couple threads. NO ONE has said that drugs should be given to everyone, just the people for whom there is a need and a significant benefit.
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Fremd:
I'm curious, how old is your friends daughter?
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Quote:I think 6ix's argument was/ is more generic than ADHD. In any case, the prevalence of diagnosed ADHD in children is about on-par with the prevalance of depression in adults, prolly averaging around 8%. The arguments could be similar: whereas depression can be caused by a combination of neurochemical vulnerability and stressful environment, ADHD might be caused by a combination of dietary deficiencies, neurochemical susceptibility and too much TV (for example).
Um, I thought we were still talking about ADD\ADHD, depression is a bit of a different animal. Depression is definitely (for a lot of people) a social issue that we can and should address.
www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/adhdprevalence.htm
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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