The Saddest Calvin and Hobbes Sketch Ever
POSTED BY: 6ixStringJack
UPDATED: Saturday, March 3, 2007 14:12
VIEWED: 22603
PAGE 6 of 16
Quote:Would there be a pill against the condition you have (and would you not be working in a profession where you feel pills would inhibit your ability to perform), would you take it? Based on your assessment of 6string, would you recommend that he take it, i.e. would you say something along the lines of "Hey Jack, I recognise what you have and I've got the same, try this pill, it made everything better"?
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
A little-known phenomenae that seems to come along and make trouble for folks with the thought process we seem to share, Jack, is commonly known as a Dyscalculic Sequencing Disorder.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.
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Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Hoo boy...... I hate Scientologists, but I hope we get a few in office that will start regulating this irresponsible drug abuse.
Irony
In order to prevent a potential future where drugs are used to brainwash people, you would put people in charge of us whose main purpose in life is to...brainwash us...
I can only to 3 possible conclusions.
1: You were joking
2: You don't have enough information about Scientology
3: You are a dangerous lunatic
The fourth conclusion would be that you are stupid, but I don't think that is the case, for all your faults you haven't shown yourself to be actually stupid...please tell me you were joking.
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I wanted to expound on something from earlier.
The good news and the bad news about these drugs is that they wear off. That's why people have to take them every day, sometimes several times a day - whether they have seizures, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, rages, depression, ADHD or whatever. It's not as if the person taking the drugs never gets to experience their 'true' undrugged state. For kids on Ritalin, all you have to do is wait 4 - 6 hours and you have your Ritalin-free kid. For other drugs the washout time is longer - but it's there.
So people can and do experience their 'natural' selves.
I also think 6-string has a problem with asking the kids what do they prefer? Because what if they prefer the medication ? Then there is no potential outrage over kids being forced to take medication at the hands of a system.
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Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
And who the hell is Sigmanunki anyways?
Someone who's been a member here several years longer than you. Someone who knows this thing called tact (most of the time).
Nice try trying to discard my opinion b/c "I'm new" though. Too bad it doesn't fit reality.
Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I will not censor myself and I will not back off. If you can't take the heat...... you know the rest.
This isn't about censorship. It's about being respectful and keeping things civil. From what I've read of your recent posts (at least as I remember the tone of some of your older ones), you don't do this. Don't bitch because someone called you on it.
Basically, if you would have kept a civil tongue, we wouldn't be having this conversation, nor would TWG have left. Have some integrity and take responsibility for your actions.
@FREMDFIRMA:
I do the note pad thing b/c of my... non-linear thoughts. When I post something, it typically goes through several revisions taking definitely over 10 mins. In fact, I've spent over an hour on some.
But, I'm going to have to disagree about the math thing as I have a Math degree. Given time and energy (as long as one is willing to spend it), one can thunk the brain into that way of thinking. Not that "people like us" are the only ones that have to. It just takes more time/energy.
"""
STOP BEIN MEAN TO EACH OTHER
*whew*
Had to get that out... ain't no cause nor reason for it.
"""
Spot on.
@JLIN13:
Yah, that was hi-larious.
@Rue:
I have an issue asking kids if they want to take the meds or not and abiding by that decision. After all, they are kids and by definition they have no clue about consequences, etc. Sometimes, the parents must make the decision regardless of what the child thinks for there benefit. Of course I'm talking about pre-teens. But, mostly similarly for teens as well.
Other than that, as long as someone isn't a risk to the public, do what yah wanna do.
@All:
To add to this conversation, my wife has actually asked me point blank if I've ever been to someone to get diagnosed.
Basically, I've never been because for the most part, I'm functional and contribute positively to society. That combined with the possibility that I could loose the ability to do what I love to do, it isn't worth it.
So, I've never been.
That being said, I have found that over the past couple year, if even just because of the massive amounts of stress I've been put under, I'm getting worse. Perhaps it's temporary, perhaps not. But, if there comes a time in which I have to use meds to be able to continue contributing (or not a complete nutter), then so be it.
There's also the issue of medicating when it's not necessary that has been brought up. But honestly, when has this _not_ been the case. There has always been a "one size fits all" disorder and this isn't limited to the mind.
IMO, the only way to mitigate this is if a child is "diagnosed" with such a disorder, the parents have to become informed and ask *a lot* of questions, get another doctor to look at the child (without even mentioning that they're the second guy), etc.
At any rate, I've been writing this for 45 mins - 1 hr and I've got things to do. So, this post will have to end here.
----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
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I think I understand where 6string is coming from... I think... If individuals don't "fit" society, do you change society or do you change the individual? In Victorian society- and later- many disorders were blamed on the "id" and repressed sexual urges. Despite the fact that many of Freud's patients really were molested as children and that the whole society was based on rigid class, sex, and race roles- as well as completely hung up about sex- it was so much easier to "blame the victim".
In in ANY society when stress goes up so does drug use, whether alcohol, valium, weed, or SSRIs. The fact is that it is easier (and more profitable) to blame the victim- to chemically adjust people to society than to adjust the society to people... especially since societies are run by the those who resist any meaningful transfer of power. The fact that very effective psychotropic drugs are available makes it so much easier to do exactly that, without globally considering whether there is something wrong with a society where 25% of the population needs antidepressants just to function. Or maybe our expectations are skewed. Perhaps our manic ethos - you can do anything if you just try hard enough- is very, very wrong. Studies have shown that people who are classified as "moderately depressed" are actually MORE realistic and make better decisions that people who are considered "normal".
OTOH- there ARE people who benefit greatly from drugs- even drugs that are "forced" on them as children.
The only way to statisfy both concerns is to set a drug use threshold which causes us to look at our society as a whole and asy "what gives?"
6String- have you considered owning your own business? That's the one place where ADHD people really do well.
Sigma- I can guarantee you that no matter how hard we push our daughter the damage done to her right brain makes math and mapping a terrible struggle.
---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I think I understand where 6string is coming from... I think... If individuals don't "fit" society, do you change society or do you change the individual?
Given the enormous implications and work load that adjusting society to a small percentage of people would bring I think the choice is fairly obvious.
Quote:
without globally considering whether there is something wrong with a society where 25% of the population needs antidepressants just to function
I have to ask where you got that number from, I know a lot of people and almost none of them use anti-deps, the only one that I can think of who does...well he's really f'ed up (or was I don't hang out with him anymore), even 6ix would approve of loading him up on drugs.
Quote:
Or maybe our expectations are skewed. Perhaps our manic ethos - you can do anything if you just try hard enough- is very, very wrong.
Absolutely.
Quote:
Studies have shown that people who are classified as "moderately depressed" are actually MORE realistic and make better decisions that people who are considered "normal".
Indeed we do
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Quote:
What do you think of letting the child have a say? Kind of like getting glasses - which way this better, this way, or this? There are children who go on medication who are relieved to be on it. Not b/c they're making their parents happy but b/c they're more capable and they feel better.
Well, see, that's an enormous can of worms for me, no one asks them, about anything.
Children in our society are generally regarded as something less than people, their legal and social status amongst the adult community is closer to pets, beloved property, but property all the same, and the law does us no favors in respect to it either.
You can get in more trouble, in fact, for mistreating your pet, than your child, and if you *own* the child, even the very worst abuse is considered little more than property damage by the law.
(See Also: Incest Exception)
No one listens to a kid, and when adults talk to them, that's what they do, talk TO them, down AT them, in a patronizing and insulting fashion, rather than speaking WITH them.
I hated that bullshit when I was on the recieving end, and I most certainly do *not* engage in such behavior myself, one of the reasons "Uncle Frem" is the confidant of my social circles kids, and general problem solver, because to treat them with respect, to speak to them and listen just like they are another person, instead of like a puppy they just peed on the floor, is the basic key that most adults these days lack.
To have a child's respect is a very, very important part of working with them, and that MUST be earned, and you must set an example yourself if you wish them to engage in and/or avoid certain behaviors, or you needn't bother.
Case Example: I have a friend who's daughter flat will not listen to her, frankly because there's little love lost and even less respect in either direction, she can threaten, cajole, and order all she wants, but that kid is stubborn as a rock, and the nastier she gets about it, the more stubborn the kid gets about it, wanting naught more than to be treated like a person.
Middle of this soon-to-be-brawl, I turn and ask politely, as if I am talkin to any other person.. "Marie, would you put the trash out, please ?" and she goes "Ok." and goes and does it.
Her mother doesn't comprehend WHY this works because her first instinct, as taught by morons and psychos like Dobson and Esso, is to attack anything but meek subservience and "break" the child to her will, but she's a strong willed woman with a strong willed child, and all she's breakin is her family.
As far as discipline goes, earned respect makes a tremendous difference - in the above case, often no amount of physical or other threat will make any difference regarding her behavior, but one stern and dissapproving look from me would stop her in her tracks.. as she said "Don't look at meee like that, I feel an inch tall!".
"Well, don't act like that then, she is right you know, it's not a place to be wearing that, and it's not really age appropriate anyhow.. wear something nicer and you might impress some folk, they might pay a mind to you for once."
"But you dress like a bum!"
"Yeah, but if I wanted to impress someone, I'd wear a suit anyway, it's about giving them the respect of a professional appearance to show you take them seriously, and so they take you seriously - you want people to take you serious, you have to show that you take them serious too."
"Oh!...ok."
That works a hell of a lot better than "Because I said so!" or "Do it or else!"
If folks can be bothered with basic communication, then they shouldn't have bothered having kids in the first damned place.
I don't think Six has as much a problem with asking kids what they prefer, as he has with no one asking them before forcing pills upon them.
Besides, what if you asked them and they said "No!", while the school is threatening to expel them and make trouble with child protective services if you don't medicate ?
What do you do then ?
And while we're on the topic, when my niece comes to me with
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@SignyM:
Ok, I realize now that my statement implied that /everyone/ could do Math given enough time. Didn't mean that. I thought that context took care of it, but I was apparently mistaken.
In fact, I openly criticize the mentality the "everyone can do anything" attitude that schools currently have. I believe that it is the core cause of the dumbing down of schools. I think that the Simpsons summarized/criticised this best with:
"All I know is that no-one is better than anyone else and everyone is the best at everything."
- Assistant Grounds Keeper Skinner
To /attempt/ to be more specific, when it comes to Math, I believe that people with some (or possible a lot) of mental fog can overcome and be able to do higher Mathematics. IMO, people don't do it because of the instant fix mentality that is so pervasive in society today. IMO, the same is true for most, if not all, areas of life.
But again, this is all assuming the the person doesn't have any "serious" problems.
----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Children in our society are generally regarded as something less than people, their legal and social status amongst the adult community is closer to pets, beloved property, but property all the same, and the law does us no favors in respect to it either.
...snip...
I understand that you have experience with this being true. But, there are still places in this world where such things are still found unacceptable; the war isn't lost yet.
I also wouldn't go as far as to say the property thing.
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
SIGMANUNKI-
Those last two paragraphs you wrote, are exactly how it SHOULD be, but ain't,
Thank you
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
and I think the whole little mess in this thread has been unneccessary cause folks just ain't gettin each other.
Or don't want to get each-other (one or both of them).
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
There's how it SHOULD be.
and then there's how it IS.
Agreed. But, if no-one says how it should be, the people who don't realize how it should be, will never even be exposed to the idea.
Now, the people here tend to be quite intelligent and well informed. But, I know that I haven't realized some obvious things, so perhaps saying it has done some good. Maybe next time a M.D. writes a script, people will start to ask why. Just like I've re-evaluated many things b/c of discussions here.
This was one that got me thinking. As an example, a girl I knew got sent to a Psychiatrist and a Psychologist. The psychiatrist started off by saying that he was going to start her off on drug X and if that doesn't work then they'll cycle through the list until they find one that works. She then asked if there was any indication that her brain chemistry was off. He said no. She replied that since there was no indication that she needed these drugs and the fact that they have some serious side-effects, she wouldn't take them. Looked quite good in front of the Psychologist.
It's this sort of thinking that we need to shift to.
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Some folks gotta problem with how it IS - but misunderstanding and general slagging took precedence over communication, as it often does here... the slaggin doesn't bother me in and of itself, but when the discussion is lost in it, well...
The exact reason why I don't regularly participate on these forums, RWD or otherwise.
----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
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Ultimately adults DO have 'control' of 'their' children. But it would be a fool of a doctor, or a parent, to 'treat' a child and not ASK them how they think it's going. Now if you have a child that's raging, breaking walls and so on, and no reason-based approach works; or if they're having seizures; or hallucinating or whatever is very far out of the norm; then you do need to do something, whether they like it or not.
But for the in-between-ers - Why NOT ask? Is it better this way ??? Or this way ??? Who would know better than the child?
As for 'fixing' society - I'm ALL for that. If 10% of your population is on mood 'scrips at any one time, your society is seriously effed up.
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