Firefly River vs. Serenity River : fanfic portrayal
POSTED BY: EmpireX
UPDATED: Thursday, March 8, 2007 02:01
VIEWED: 30380
PAGE 6 of 10
Quote:I don't think anyone here isn't open to that! Some may be saying they won't read River/Jayne, but that's a different thing! We're just opposed to the way the characters are soemtimes portrayed, because it seems to sell them short or run counter to what we saw of them in the series and movie.
Originally posted by Romanceguru:
Well, at least you're open to the possibility that "any relationship is possible".
Quote:Really - that's not the argument at all! It was your insistance that River's experience of torture and her ability to fly a spaceship make her an expert on people and relationships... this is what got me into the game!
No, actually we are arguing if River should ever be “allowed” to enter into such arrangements in the first place. No relationship can be guaranteed to last.
I've repeatedly stated that she should have a relationship, and even that it could be with Jayne. But, if it's going to be a believable fanfic, the character should be River - the character Joss gave us, not some other version of her. Of course, the "River that Joss gave us" is not absolutely defined, and it's fun to talk about her and compare our different understandings of her. That's all that's happening here! It's a debate to bring out new insights.
Now - I must admit that I'm selfishly motivated here. As Asarian and I are in total agreement over, there is a fabric to Firefly that is so often ignored in fic. Almost always, in fact. I wish more writers took it into account, because I can't read much that blows it all off. So... if I can convince anyone to key in on a wider view of the 'verse, and present the characters with all this in mind, (as Joss obviously did) I'll have more that I like reading.
But that's just me.
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Quote:
Really - that's not the argument at all! It was your insistance that River's experience of torture and her ability to fly a spaceship make her an expert on people and relationships... this is what got me into the game!
That is really unfair because that was one of my examples towards the main argument, not the basis of it. I never said it made her an expert, you are embellishing. Personally, I see that as just one example of her capabilities as a person, which many here paint River as completely damaged and unstable. Just because YOU many have jumped into the game at that point does not mean that was the central theme of the disagreement.
MANY have clearly stated they were not open to the possibility of Rayne, what do you think I have been arguing?
I agree fic’s are better when portrayed accurately (or as accurately as one can given personal interpretation for we are not Joss) and a lot of thought and exploration is done of the character through the story.
Of course, this is fanfiction and most of it is not going to be spot on, but we can try and at least do the 'verse justice. When you write non-canon that it going to be even more difficult. All I ask, and ask for other writers is to not be flamed and be categorized as pervey because we see different possible relationship dynamics.
For argument sake, even if some aren’t plausible, I’m still going to respect the creativity of the author for going against the norm and attempting to make it work.
“Hell is coming to breakfast.”
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Quote:Wow... did it just get a little tense in here?
Originally posted by Romanceguru:
I never said it made her an expert, you are embellishing. Personally, I see that as just one example of her capabilities as a person, which many here paint River as completely damaged and unstable. Just because YOU many have jumped into the game at that point does not mean that was the central theme of the disagreement.
*adjusts collar, clears throat, takes a big step back*
Ummm... OK... River's perceived maturity is central to the River/Jayne pedophilia question (don't flame me - I'm just paraphrasing the original post here!) and you clearly used her intelligence and abilities and her life experiences to back your argument about her level of maturity.
I disagree with that. But hey now... just because I don't agree with you and I'm willing to get into debate about it, doesn't mean I hate you and want to trash any bit of fanfic you like. We're all fans here, ok? Debate is fun! Getting mad isn't!
Quote:You know, there's just things people don't like! And some may even say - "this should NEVER be written, grrr.." I very much hope I have not come off that way. I try to be clear that as strong as I feel about some fic stuff, it's all nothing but my opinion, and the only thing my opinion affects in the end is whether or not mal4prez reads a fic. (Which at least 99.9999% of the FFF 'verse doesn't give a hoot about.)
MANY have clearly stated they were not open to the possibility of Rayne, what do you think I have been arguing?
Quote:Do you think it's possible that a person can find the River/Jayne pairing pervy without judging the writer to be so? Maybe this is what you seem to find insulting, that you think one means the other?
All I ask, and ask for other writers is to not be flamed and be categorized as pervey because we see different possible relationship dynamics.
So maybe think of it this way - I myself don't find the writers pervy, because I feel that many writers do a hey-presto change to River's character in order to make the pairing work in a non-creepy way. This change is what bothers me, and it's what I got into debating. If that was a tangent... well, I don't apologize because I thought it was a wicked fun tangent, and Asarian's posts certainly gave me some new insight into how I treat River in my own fics. Tangents make for good and interesting rides.
Quote:That's fine, and you should read your River/Jayne and leave glowing feedback when you feel it's deserved, and good for ANY writers having the courage to post their work publicly!
For argument sake, even if some aren’t plausible, I’m still going to respect the creativity of the author for going against the norm and attempting to make it work.
But I don't have to read it, and I can certainly debate the merit behind certain treatments of the characters. And - I stress this again - just because some of us hate the idea of a certain pairing and like to sit around chewing little aspects of it, it doesn't mean we're out to personally insult you!
)))))))) ***vibes of love coming your way*** ))))))))))))))))))))))
BTW... and here I'm going to share an opinion you (and others) may not like... I don't think simply pairing any two characters is such a huge creative against-the-norm step. Seems that most of the fic in the BSR is based on romantic pairings, whether it be canon, or non-canon or slash or space incest or Jayne and the cows. (OK, I made that last one up.) Don't get me wrong - a lot of shipper fic is quite stunning, and any pairing can be handled in a novel way which is creative. But I'd love to see writers do fics that aren't all about romantic fantasties... now that's against the norm!!
Quote:I'm not opposed to it at all. I just don't think that's the state of things at any time during
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Maybe it's just my perception of the posts I've read, but it seems as if some are completely opposed to the idea of River ever have control over her life and the choices she makes.
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"Seems that most of the fic in the BSR is based on romantic pairings, whether it be canon, or non-canon or slash or space incest or Jayne and the cows. (OK, I made that last one up.) Don't get me wrong - a lot of shipper fic is quite stunning, and any pairing can be handled in a novel way which is creative. But I'd love to see writers do fics that aren't all about romantic fantasties... now that's against the norm!!"
I'll admit it: I love reading River/Jayne. And I write it. But what I wrote 2 years ago is NOTHING like what I've written more recently. I just cannot write the Happily Ever After fics anymore (but I *DO* read them).
Now they tend to be more about pain and angst and hurt/comfort and connecting on a base level and everyone else is paired up and sharing common interests and learning new ones and exploring new sexuality and what it might be to love and a curious RIVER taking advantage of a MUCH less mature Jayne who's overwhelmed cause OMG she is a hottie so why not? And in some of them I've killed her and in others I've killed him.
I also tend to like READING the notsohappilyeverafter fics.
Also, there are those of us who more broadly define River/Jayne to include a murderous hatred, an antagonistic affair, genuine friendship, and sex for sex sake (which tends to take place once she's older cause WE HAVE NO IDEA OF WHAT JOSS HAD PLANNED. And it's not like he didn't do it before with Bangel and Spuffy.)
And honestly, it does feel like the majority of anti-Rayne comments say "Eww Rayne is written by Pervs for other Pervs." So we tend to take it personally.
(Also, for mentioning the cow thing--you are ev0l. I now want to write that.)
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"Do you know what the chain of command is here? It's the chain I go get and beat you with to show you who's in ruttin' command."
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Quote:
Originally posted by bugchicklv:
And honestly, it does feel like the majority of anti-Rayne comments say "Eww Rayne is written by Pervs for other Pervs." So we tend to take it personally.
I can't speak for others, but I, personally, don't consider Rayne-writers perverts.
I just consider them to be writing an out-of-character fantasy version of River (and occasionally Jayne) that often completely disregards the depths of her mental problems, immaturity and trauma, for the sake of fulfilling a certain preferred scenario.
(I do think that of most River-pairings, with varying vehemence.)
Which is fine, writers have that right, I happily ignore their work and don't judge them.
But in a public discussion thread like this one, I think it's fair and allowed to discuss why and how I consider this to be OOC and not really justifiable in the context of the show and real life examples.
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Can somebody point me in the direction of the Jayne/cow stories?
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:I do too, totally! Angst is lots of fun.
Originally posted by bugchicklv:
I also tend to like READING the notsohappilyeverafter fics.
But I'm really talking about non-pairing, or stories where the lovey relationships come second. Really - how many fics out there deal with Kaylee as an individual, and not Kaylee as half of Kaylee/Simon or Kaylee/Jayne? (or K/River or K/Inara or whatever) Very, very few.
So how about a fic about River, about her dealing with her trauma, and any relationship she might have with Jayne is secondary to that? That might interest me, because it really respects the depths of this character and her experiences.
Quote:
And honestly, it does feel like the majority of anti-Rayne comments say "Eww Rayne is written by Pervs for other Pervs." So we tend to take it personally.
That's a shame, and I know some people do get a little vehement and say stuff like that. I'm with AR though - it's the characterizations generally involved with this pairing (or with any River pairing) that gets at me.
But really - don't confuse the comment "I find Jayne/River pervy" with "This writer is a perv for writing Jayne/River." It's two different things! One is a perception, one is a judgement.
Quote:
(Also, for mentioning the cow thing--you are ev0l. I now want to write that.)
Hey - go crazy! See, you have one reader already!
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I'm the president. I don't need to listen.
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Gonna pop in here my own self. I write Firefic big time. 90,000+ words and counting. But I write in a framework I see growing out of the series/comic/movie.
And what I saw in the last scene of the BDM was interesting enough to spin part of my brain off down a very dark and twisty path.
Take one teenage girl. Put her in close proximity to a charming, funny, handsome, protective war hero. Throw in some heartache for him. So, we have brooding and slightly tortured, but covering it up with a charming grin.
River would be perfectly normal if she got a crush. And River wants to be normal...
Of course, we then have the reaction of said man. Which will be interesting. Especially if man is honourable. (And tortured. And lonely. And really, really freaked out by the whole thing. Including his response.)
I avoid Raynefic. Not my thing. I don't see Jayne as chasing children. (Besides, his wife would kill him.) But it's a big 'Verse - some people juggle geese. (Jayne and cows...?)
Writing the whole crew as an ensemble is not so easy. Seven people in a small space, all reliant upon each other. New relationships evolving (and this includes Zoe as a lone character, not part of a pair.) Maybe I'm not as twisted as Joss (or some folk) but I'm happy writing my own version of what I see evolving out of what Joss gave us. And I see River growing up, trying to be normal, but with a dark knowledge of her own limitations in that way - she was always smarter than other folks. Maybe she's even trying to be 'normal' according to some formula she's worked out.
But proximity or not...you put any woman with a pulse near Cap'n Tightpants, and tell me she's not going to look?
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Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
Take one teenage girl. Put her in close proximity to a charming, funny, handsome, protective war hero. Throw in some heartache for him. So, we have brooding and slightly tortured, but covering it up with a charming grin.
River would be perfectly normal if she got a crush. And River wants to be normal...
Of course, we then have the reaction of said man. Which will be interesting. Especially if man is honourable. (And tortured. And lonely. And really, really freaked out by the whole thing. Including his response.)
Totally agree (epecially on the crush thing); but change it to a less than honorable, creeped out, selfish, greedy, gun-slinging mercenary. EGADS! You have the same potential for all sorts of scenarios (as long as we don't foofify Jayne. Which I think I used to do--but avoid like the plague now).
MOST of these scenarios don't work out and some of the best writing/reading is when they realize the mistake.
And who HASN'T made a really bad decison, especially when it comes to sex/relationships? Me? I make 'em all the time--but nothing I wouldn't do again exactly the same. I'd rather regret the things I DID do than the things I didn't.
Quote:
I avoid Raynefic. Not my thing. I don't see Jayne as chasing children. (Besides, his wife would kill him.) But it's a big 'Verse - some people juggle geese. (Jayne and cows...?)
LOL! Just like I avoid Mal/River because it's too incesty IMHO (although I *DO* like some of the Crazy Space Incest. *shrug* I think it is because the VERY FEW writers I've chosen to read are INCREDIBLY good at it and make it not so icky).
18 yrs old is not considered a child in most cultures. Now, emotionally/behaviorally--that's another story. But then again, I happen to think Jayne was stunted somehow, someway around that time--jail?--so it puts them on a level playing field. And many of our writers do age her quite a bit.
FYI Mercedes McNab is only one year older than Summer and yet he was shown half-nekkid in bed with her in Angel. Wife didn't kill him then. And Jewel is a year YOUNGER than Summer. But those people who draw the line on Rayne SIMPLY BECAUSE of the age thing (and yet go nuts over Raylee) seem to forget that.
But you are right--there's room for everyone in this verse. That is the beauty (and the curse) of having so little to work with.
ARRRRGH! I am determined to write the cow/Jayne thing (but from the cows' perspective). Can't help it...I wrote about Binky reeeeeally liking the licky-thing, and Vera being jealous of Boo (sorta)--so this is 100% a natural evolution.
Yes, I know. Me=Bent.
Quote:
But proximity or not...you put any woman with a pulse near Cap'n Tightpants, and tell me she's not going to look?
I'd look, but when I realized it was my dad I'd start gagging and flailing about. Cause, IMHO, Mal is more of a father to her than her own ever was.
Plus, I happen to worship Adam while finding Nathan just ok. And for some people the degree of like we have for the actor can't help but filter into our preferences for fanfic (writing or reading). It's why I read A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G with Jayne in it: Mal/Jayne *rowr* Jayne/Simon *zomygawd* Jayne/Inara *fans self*...you get the point.
But I guess what I am saying here is who's to say what is Out Of Character? Especially for a fic that happens in the FUTURE or is AU? We have NO idea what Joss had planned. And Buffy season 6 is so completely different from Buffy season one, that if someone had written Spuffy back when she was in high school EVERYONE would have lambasted the writer for writing her out of character--even if it were under the exact same circumstances as Joss gave us 3 years later!
But time passes and circumstances change which means ANYTHING can happen. That is all most of us who like Rayne are saying.
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"Do you know what the chain of command is here? It's the chain I go get and beat you with to show you who's in ruttin' com
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Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Can somebody point me in the direction of the Jayne/cow stories?
Working on it.
No, really.
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"Do you know what the chain of command is here? It's the chain I go get and beat you with to show you who's in ruttin' command."
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