Firefly River vs. Serenity River : fanfic portrayal

POSTED BY: EmpireX
UPDATED: Thursday, March 8, 2007 02:01
VIEWED: 30380
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DESKTOPHIPPIE

Thursday, January 25, 2007 9:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Now mind you, I wasn't on fan-sites at the time, but my question is this:

Where were the people defending said character's virtue (for lack of a better term), when a certain sixteen-year-old slayer and a 240-year-old vampire were shacking up?

To be honest, I DO find Angel/Buffy creepy, as well.

*raises a hand* Me too. I found it a bit creepifying too.

I guess it's natural that neither of them would wait 'till Buffy was older since there was very little chance she was ever going to be older, but it was still a pretty creepy relationship. That's pretty much the reason Angel called it off. Buffy was extremely mature for her age - she had to be - but when Angel saw 'Angel and Buffy 4 ever!' written on her copybook he realised that she was still a child, and he wasn't. It just took that and Joyce's words to bring it home to him.

Graphics available at www.desktophippie.com

AGENTROUKA

Thursday, January 25, 2007 9:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Romanceguru:
Most of the characters on the show are a contradiction to morality.

Please do not hold them to your rigorous ideals. There is vast room for interpretation in the verse.

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“Hell is coming to breakfast.”

I think the very fact that many characters make morally questionable choices is supposed to make the intelligent viewer question those choices. It's a commentary on humanity, not a free pass for murder, theft and violence.

When they cross lines, we are supposed to judge them.

DEEPGIRL187

Thursday, January 25, 2007 10:14 PM

I guess where I'm coming from here, is that before completely writing off the idea of River in a relationship with someone older (and it doesn't have to be crew), consider the fact that it can be done in an intelligent, thought-provoking manner.

Maybe it's just my perception of the posts I've read, but it seems as if some are completely opposed to the idea of River ever have control over her life and the choices she makes. Yes, River will always have problems. Yes, it will be hard for her to adjust socially. But that's not to say that she can't adjust at all. Viewers would have lost interest if River was treated like a child for the duration of the series. I think that if the series continued, we would have seen River making more choices about her life (regarding a relationship or not), and I think that it's understandable that people would want to explore that in fan fiction.

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"I suppose if we couldn't laugh at things that don't make sense, we couldn't react to a lot of life."

ROMANCEGURU

Thursday, January 25, 2007 10:55 PM

Quote:
I think the very fact that many characters make morally questionable choices is supposed to make the intelligent viewer question those choices. It's a commentary on humanity, not a free pass for murder, theft and violence.

When they cross lines, we are supposed to judge them.

Judge them at will, but don’t expect the characters to strictly follow YOUR moral views. Keep in mind that because it’s Joss’s ‘verse he might possibly explore this avenue as well as many others. A Jayne/River relationship could be written as a beautiful thing or written to be fatality doomed from the start, depending on the individual premise of the fiction.

Quote:
I guess where I'm coming from here, is that before completely writing off the idea of River in a relationship with someone older (and it doesn't have to be crew), consider the fact that it can be done in an intelligent, thought-provoking manner.

Maybe it's just my perception of the posts I've read, but it seems as if some are completely opposed to the idea of River ever have control over her life and the choices she makes. Yes, River will always have problems. Yes, it will be hard for her to adjust socially. But that's not to say that she can't adjust at all. Viewers would have lost interest if River was treated like a child for the duration of the series. I think that if the series continued, we would have seen River making more choices about her life (regarding a relationship or not), and I think that it's understandable that people would want to explore that in fan fiction.

Thank you Deepgirl187, my sentiments exactly!

*************************************************
“Hell is coming to Breakfast.”

ARCADIA

Thursday, January 25, 2007 11:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Maybe it's just my perception of the posts I've read, but it seems as if some are completely opposed to the idea of River ever have control over her life and the choices she makes.

For fear this comment was inspired by one of my posts -- which, I admit, was not my best written effort ever -- I just wanted to say I have no problem with the idea of River taking more control over her self/choices/body/life, etc. In fact, quite contrarily, I think it would be an interesting and exciting journey for her. I just wanted to somewhat discredit the "River has overcome so much and therefore is more mature and wise than anyone" argument, because I think it is crap.

Also, I now feel the need to add that while I don't feel River could have a healthy relationship with an older man given where she is mentally and emotionally at the end of the BDM, and unhealthy one is quite possible. But, since I think we are arguing over the idea of a healthy ronance here, I did not say so above.

No matter what River's first romance is or who it is with, it will undoubtably be flawed and potentially just as bad as it is good. Because that's how most relationships are, first or otherwise. Also, relationships happen because, well, they happen, regardless of whether you or ready or the timing is ideal and all that. River, I think, is still some time away from being a capable, independent person who would be able to handle a romantic relationship with the good sense and maturity one needs to make a relationship really last. That doesn't mean she's not going to get into relationships anyway! And that they won't turn out mostly all right.

But, as I said above, it seems to me we are mainly arguing about whether she would have a stable, lasting relationship with Jayne (or Mal, but mostly Jayne) which... no, and especially not at this point. I guess any relationship is possible under the right circumstances. Time changes lots of things. But as of immediate post-BDM era, those relationships just don't seem possible to me, and I have yet to read a fic (and, honestly, I generally avoid River/Jayne/Mal fic, but sometimes you can't avoid it because it is part of a large fic) that has pulled any of these relationships off realisticly or well.

Arcadia (aka Greyfable and/or Katie)
www.stillflying.net -- picking up Firefly were Joss left off. We will hold 'til he gets back.

STINKINGROSE

Friday, January 26, 2007 12:00 AM

River/Jayne/Mal

Now there's one I'm not sure I could bring myself to read, but somebody's bound to try it.

Why oh why is there no emoticon for shudder?

DEEPGIRL187

Friday, January 26, 2007 12:03 AM

You know, now that I think about it, we're all looking at this from the wrong perspective. I mean, for heaven's sake, it's Joss we're talking about. If the series had continued, no one would have been happy. He would have found a way for everyone's relationship to be ruined...course, this wouldn't be looking at things from the perspective of fan fiction. What was the original topic of this thread again?

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"I suppose if we couldn't laugh at things that don't make sense, we couldn't react to a lot of life."

ROMANCEGURU

Friday, January 26, 2007 12:03 AM

Well, at least you're open to the possibility that "any relationship is possible". Every fic is written differently and many authors often explore the various directions River’s “first” relationship can go. Many are heartbreaking and do not end blissfully, and others do.

Since you avoid reading Mal/River and Jayne/River fic because you do not agree and or enjoy it (and you have that right just as we have to write it) I can see where it would be hard to find one written to your standards. Rayne or even Maliver fic tend to attract more open minded readers.

Quote:
But, as I said above, it seems to me we are mainly arguing about whether she would have a stable, lasting relationship with Jayne (or Mal, but mostly Jayne)

No, actually we are arguing if River should ever be “allowed” to enter into such arrangements in the first place. No relationship can be guaranteed to last.

Quote:
You know, now that I think about it, we're all looking at this from the wrong perspective. I mean, for heaven's sake, it's Joss we're talking about. If the series had continued, no one would have been happy. He would have found a way for everyone's relationship to be ruined...course, this wouldn't be looking at things from the perspective of fan fiction. What was the original topic of this thread again?

Yes, deepgirl, he would have. Unfortunately, I can see him doing that especially with a River/Jayne relationship. That’s the beauty of fanfic, sometimes you can write your happy ending, and Wash can still be alive.

“Hell is coming to breakfast.”

DANNIISUPERNOVA

Friday, January 26, 2007 12:51 AM

I don't ship Rayne but I support your right to choose dammit! (being on another disliked ship)

_____

"You know that's gonna fall off."
-----Nathan Fillion (to me while drunk)

How are ships unlike food?
1. If you try it and don't like it, you don't have to do it again.
2. You can have as much as you want, when you want.
3. Cravings can be very specific.
I mean, hello it's not as if there's 'ship police?

ASARIAN

Friday, January 26, 2007 6:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

I've been having thoughts about something Asarian got into waaaay back:

Quote:
All of a sudden reading how River is grappling with any of the crew -- apart from finding it all manner of distasteful to take advantage of a mentally traumatized seventeen year old girl -- really, IMNSHO, violates not just River, but the very fabric of Firefly itself.

I must go further with this idea of the fabric of Firefly, because it's such a strong idea.

As I see it, the main story to Firefly/Serenity is Mal's ongoing conflict with the Alliance. River's character serves as the push to get him back into that battle. She's an innocent that got trampled by the Alliance, and as such she brings out a protective instinct in the crew. OK, not in Jayne, but certainly in Mal. Because he chooses to protect her, and not to abandon her, she gets them all to Miranda. She's like the drop that starts the flood or something like that.

Her role is to return idealism and self-sacrifice to a hardened and self-serving crew, and her youth and inexperience are absolutely necessary for that. The fact that she's half fighting machine just heightens the tragedy of what the Alliance has done to her, because River herself is not a killer. The part of her they created and control through subconscious triggers is the killer. In the movie, she finds a way to reach that part of herself, but she does it to save the people she loves. She's still very much an innocent - and even more tragic because she's accepted this dark part of herself that she abhors, sacrificing some of her innocence to save her brother.

So... having River just jump into bed with Mal or Jayne (oh yes, there are those fics where it's that simple. "I'm 18 now, I'm going to bed who I want!" *shudder*) completely goes against what Joss has so carefully set up. It's not something I can stomach.

IMNSHO.

Ah, yes, the fabric of Firefly. One of my favorite topics. :) I'm glad you feel it's such a strong idea, because, well, it is.

River, apart from trying to function like a girl, also functions like a catalyst (not catalyzer) for that "hardened and self-serving crew," to help them reconnect to their humanity.

Mal ain't looking for help from on high no more. After the Battle of Serenity Valley, it was really Mal, personally, who suffered a crushing defeat. Because when one is so disillusioned that one can literally no longer take the "high" road, what's left is a sense of loss of direction. Mal became, one might say, a rebel without a cause.

Then came River. And what River awakened in Mal, I think, was not so much a renewed continuation of his conflict with the Alliance, per se, but rather a way for him to turn that "upward path" inwardly, so to speak. In River, he found the realization that the 'verse, at large, don't necessarily has to make sense, or be just even. Or rather, I should say perhaps, he started realizing that helping River IS the way to have the 'the verse make sense -- along the lines of that old adage: "He who saves one life, saves the 'verse entire." I doubt any of this ever really surfaced, consciously, to the upper echelons of Mal's brainpan; but River gave Mal a renewed sense of purpose nonetheless.

That fabric has a name, you know. It's called Love. It forges ties that are stronger than the prospect of profit or the opportunities to take advantage. It's what Mal tried to explain to Saffron: "That's 'cause I got people with me, people who trust each other, who do for each other, and ain't always looking for the advantage." Mal, his own self, does not take advantage of River; CANNOT take advantage of her. Not because of any imputed closed-mindedness on the part of me and mine; but simply because doing so would be like dropping the knitting-needle, and see the whole well-crafted Firefly fabric unravel along with it before your very eyes!

Mal has a protective, fatherly role towards Kaylee, too. When Kaylee was talking 'bout what's twixt her nethers, Mal wasn't kidding when he

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