Firefly River vs. Serenity River : fanfic portrayal
POSTED BY: EmpireX
UPDATED: Thursday, March 8, 2007 02:01
VIEWED: 30380
PAGE 3 of 10
Well put, RomanceGuru 
I, too, am I Rayne shipper but I'm not posting this in defence of my ship - we all have different tastes. I write this to say that River has may be mentally fragile but she has many more years of her life to follow.
I realy cannot believe that Joss would want to keep River in a perpetual state of misery. Many arguments here seem to be that River is too traumatised to enter into a relationship etc etc. We can clearly see at the end of "Serenity" that she is making progress to claiming control over herself and her sanity. I think it's entirely pessimistic to assume that River will let her abuse control her life, and that she will never grow into a fully functioning adult.
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"It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think."
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RomanceGuru,
I'm not saying that River should be denied rmance, love and sex.
I'm saying that trying to experience and learn about these things with someone who is her own age and experience level would be beneficial, even, but doing the same with a man much older would be... not. Harmful, even, not to mention cast a questionable light upon whatever older man she would take up with, considering what exactly they would be getting out of such an arrangement.
Yes, in the past older man married younger women. The reasons for those unions were, however, not exactly feminist. They were biological and often oppressive.
A younger woman can have more children, is more likely to still be a virgin and she's not yet emotionally and mentally independent enough to have developed much will of her own, so she's less trouble to integrate into her new home (as an object that has changed hands of ownership) and take on whatever role her husband wants her to play.
I realize that this isn't the rule in modern time, so called "May-December" romances, but it's what all this human history of relationships between young women and older men that you refer to is kind of based on.
Plus, you keep bringing up the point of her life experience and use that to claim that River is mature and has overcome a lot, but... not really.
She was 14, and due to her vast intelligence probably not overtly socially integrated, hanging out with students above her age, being called "little mouse", which already implies a certain gap in experience and equality level.
Then she spends two years cut off from her family, experimented upon and trained to be a killer, often not even conscious.
Then she's taken out of that prison and spends 8 months going back and forth between periods of lucidity and periods of trance-like confusion. And then she hacks up a roomful of people, gets a big secret knocked loose in her head, physically attacks her brother and ends up hacking up another roomful of people, Reavers this time.
The time she has spent in a society much different from our modern one is 8 months. The time she spent in one very much like ours is 14 years of her life, and even then probably more sheltered than the average teen today. I just don't see where this assumption that she would be more mature than the average teen today would be coming from.
Those aren't experiences that emotionally mature someone. If that were true, everyone who's been through any kind of trauma would be a better person than those who grow up happy and healthy and unbothered, but that's generally not the case. They end up with abusive impulses and Issues themselves. Tend to need help.
I'm not saying that she is a victim 100%, but.. she is a victim among other aspects. One that needs time to catch up to where people her own age should be. Learn how to be independent before settling herself into another kind of dependence.
(Calling he brother a boob and complaining about taking medicine, hell, even beating up a bunch of Reavers.. that has nothing to do with growing up.)
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Originally posted by Romanceguru:
To further this point, she has been given the responsibility of co-piloting the ship. If River is being allowed to hold the lives of others in her hands, she most certainly can “pilot” her own life.
Sooo not true! A technical skill does not mean anything in terms of human relationships! Piloting a ship and communicating with another human being have nothing to do with eachother!
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Conversely, old-fashion views are intermingled within this society and you should keep in mind that would have included much older men being paired with younger women, so in that respect it would not be seen as “creepy”.
Just because it still happens on rim planets doesn't make it less creepy... The point is often made that the backward things happening on the rim worlds are not supported by our intrepid crew. ie burning witches, shipping slaves... Child brides and man/girl love would fall in this category as well, imho.
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You can't arbitrarily say that experience changes a person and not apply that to River. Given her experience, she's years older in wisdom than anyone on that ship, Mal and Zoe included.
I'm with AR here - River has shown lots of smarts but very little wisdom, and her experiences have not involved any kind of healthy human contact. They have done nothing to teach her social skills!
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How can you expect her to gain that sort of knowledge if you deny her the experience of it?
No one's denying her the right to get into a relationship! I think we're all in agreement that she needs to - and would very much want to!
I'm not even arguing that she could NEVER get involved with Jayne. But she would need a great of time to heal, grow up, and learn. Other relationships with people her own age would give her that opportunity.
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I'm the president. I don't need to listen.
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I’m not saying that River will suddenly be ok and skipping around with her male partner as if everything is normal. There will be obstacles, relapses and part of the intrigue as a writer/reader is to see how both River and the man of her choosing will overcome and or come to terms with these issues.
No matter how traumatized or broken you believe River to be, whomever chooses to love her in spite of this is not wrong, but courageous.
Must I reiterate the point that most stories I’ve read or written, has been set post-BDM to further allow River healing time.
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“Plus, you keep bringing up the point of her life experience and use that to claim that River is mature and has overcome a lot, but... not really.”
You don’t think she remembers all the pain and torture that she was put through at the academy? “She feels everything, how could she not.” River does deal with and overcome tremendous amounts of physical, emotional, psychological torture, along with her intellect and worldly insight she is a paradox of mature understanding and at times, acts younger then she really is. Um….Whom else on the ship tends to act emotionally immature…can’t put my finger on it, oh, right, Jayne!
Both are killers, smart in their own way but tend to regress into a child like state or attitude. Frankly, I think this is true of most adults, crazy or otherwise. Get past the age hang up and look at the parallels that might actually connect two human beings.
Do you really think a normal teenage boy could begin to understand the issues and complexities of River Tam? Be able to handle what being in a relationship with her might entail? I would place my bet that someone who knows Rivers problems, lives with her day in and out would be better equipped for the job.
You are making this into a black and white issue when there are many gray areas to explore. Life and love are not so simple. Many of these arguments are circular, and while I understand some of the points being made, I believe there should be more room left for interpretation between the lines.
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“Hell is coming to breakfast.”
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I'm with AgentRouka on this.
Just because River can run a ship, don't necessarily mean she's ready to be IN one.
Her life experience?? Other than burning years, I'd say River has virtually none. She led a very sheltered life on Osiris, with a clearly overbearing father, who no doubt kept real life all but totally outside that fancy laser-fence of his. Then, only fourteen, she went to the Academy, where she was subjected to men with tortures too unseemly to speak on. And stayed there until her brother rescued her and brought her onboard Serenity. I reckon that if River were to explore romance, she'd pretty much start off at the point where her life got brutally interrupted: at the stunned emotional level of a fourteen-year-old.
Also, development ain't an either/or thing. River may be light-years ahead on other teens, intellectually. Yet, "Clearly some aptitude for..." was clearly not spoken of her social skills.
Sure, there have always been old men and young teenage girls, and the former lusting after the latter. And, all throughout history, men have raped and pillaged. And waged war. I mean, on some planets; but only pretty bad ones. I guess that's a commentary on us. Don't make us beholden to follow in these footsteps, of course. Literature has shown us some of humanity's greatest achievements; history, some of our greatest failures. :)
Present company excluded, it's my estimation that the loudest advocates of teenage sex are usually people interested not so much in the teen's right to their own sexuality, as much as in their "right" to the teen's sexuality. So, when a thirty-five-year-old crew member is suddenly romantically interested in River, and goes on about how much River is capable of making her own decisions and such, I figure I gotta be asking myself some fairly fundamental questions about the nature of that interest.
I applaud the idea of River getting a boyfriend one day: a peer with whom she could take small steps, at a mutually set pace. Who knows, maybe someone equally messed up? (I can already hear her say: "You're my kinda crazy.") Like AgentRouka said, could be genuinely sweet. But Jayne? Possibly you're not recalling some of his previous words: "It's a girl. Cute, too, but I don't think she's all there. 'Course, not all of her has to be." Definitely shudder-worthy.
--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam
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“Just because River can run a ship, don't necessarily mean she's ready to be IN one.”
No, but the argument gives evidence of River’s capability (which the major part of the dispute). Being giving the HUGE responsibly of manning the lives of others, I would think this to be in support of her competency as a person, emotionally and mentally.
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“Her life experience?”
Her experience many not have been atypical, then neither is that the life they lead. Everyone draws from their own subjections. Just because her life wasn’t as varied as say Mal’s, doesn’t mean she can’t understand what a life of that sort may have been like. She is not in the dark, she has the ability to feel and see what others feel. That combined with her intellect is a close substitute for whatever understanding you all think she may lack.
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“Present company excluded, it's my estimation that the loudest advocates of teenage sex are usually people interested not so much in the teen's right to their own sexuality, as much as in their "right" to the teen's sexuality. So, when a thirty-five-year-old crew member is suddenly romantically interested in River, and goes on about how much River is capable of making her own decisions and such, I figure I gotta be asking myself some fairly fundamental questions about the nature of that interest.”
Excluded or not, your generalizing the mind-set Rayneship authors have. This is laugh worthy, really. Most writers of fan-fiction are mature adults who have the ability to see things more than one-sidedly. You don’t throw a fiction together without tirelessly exploring the reasons for the how and the why. You're really naïve if you think an 18yr or 19yr old, (again the age most authors use) is not going to be interested in exploring her sexuality.
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“But Jayne? Possibly you're not recalling some of his previous words: "It's a girl. Cute, too, but I don't think she's all there. 'Course, not all of her has to be." Definitely shudder-worthy.”
Um, when was that statement made? In the pilot episode. I think Jayne, more so then anyone on the ship has had the most character growth by the end of Serenity. Does he have more growing to do? Most definitely. But at the and of the BDM he is in a much better place to be considered worthy of River.
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“Sure, there have always been old men and young teenage girls, and the former lusting after the latter. And, all throughout history, men have raped and pillaged. And waged war. I mean, on some planets; but only pretty bad ones. I guess that's a commentary on us. Don't make us beholden to follow in these footsteps, of course. Literature has shown us some of humanity's greatest achievements; history, some of our greatest failures.”
Wow. That is one powerful comparison. Cannot even begin to see how that is relevant.
*************************************************
“Hell is coming to breakfast.”
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Quote:
Originally posted by Romanceguru:Quote:
“Present company excluded, it's my estimation that the loudest advocates of teenage sex are usually people interested not so much in the teen's right to their own sexuality, as much as in their "right" to the teen's sexuality. So, when a thirty-five-year-old crew member is suddenly romantically interested in River, and goes on about how much River is capable of making her own decisions and such, I figure I gotta be asking myself some fairly fundamental questions about the nature of that interest.”
Excluded or not, your generalizing the mind-set Rayneship authors have. This is laugh worthy, really. Most writers of fan-fiction are mature adults who have the ability to see things more than one-sidedly. You don’t throw a fiction together without tirelessly exploring the reasons for the how in the why. Your really naïve if you think an 18yr or 19yr old, (again the age most authors use) is not going to be interested in exploring her sexuality.
Excluded really means precisely that: I have no judgement about Rayneship authors, nor about their motives; nary a one, let alone in general terms. I'm just saying that if a thirty-five year old man wants to date a teenage girl, that you can bet I will be asking myself some serious questions as to why. And that I will be highly suspicious, and assume he's more into it for himself than for her. I mean, what parents would not cringe if, one day, a thirty-five-year-old man rang the doorbell, asking to date their teenage daughter?
Also, the issue is not whether or not an 18yr or 19yr old is going to be interested in exploring her sexuality, but whether it's appropriate for her to do that with a man twice her age. Especially if that girl happens to be severely mentally traumatized, or, at most, is only very recently beginning to recover from the ordeal.
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“But Jayne? Possibly you're not recalling some of his previous words: "It's a girl. Cute, too, but I don't think she's all there. 'Course, not all of her has to be." Definitely shudder-worthy.”
Um, when was that statement made? In the pilot episode. I think Jayne, more so then anyone on the ship has had the most character growth by the end of Serenity. Does he have more growing to do? Most definitely. But at the and of the BDM he is in a much better place to be considered worthy of River.
I think, at the end of the BDM, Jayne, at best, tolerates the Tams' presence. Don't change the matter none that I think he's too old for River.
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“Sure, there have always been old men and young teenage girls, and the former lusting after the latter. And, all throughout history, men have raped and pillaged. And waged war. I mean, on some planets; but only pretty bad ones. I guess that's a commentary on us. Don't make us beholden to follow in these footsteps, of course. Literature has shown us some of humanity's greatest achievements; history, some of our greatest failures.”
Wow. That is one powerful comparison. Cannot even begin to see how that is relevant.
It was brought forth that bad things are not without precedent, and that history is replete with examples of older men and younger girls. To which I added my two coppers, that bad things done in history, used as justification for current or future practices, really make for lousy moral guidelines.
--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam
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“I'm just saying that if a thirty-five year old man wants to date a teenage girl, that you can bet I will be asking myself some serious questions as to why. And that I will be highly suspcious, and assume he's more into it for himself than for her.”
Thank god this is fiction, set in an alternate universe, and involves some rather unique players and circumstances.
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I think, at the end of the BDM, Jayne, at best, tolerates the Tams' presence. Don't change the matter none that I think he's too old for River.
Tolerance is a start. You are free to feel that way, just don’t expect everyone else to.
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It was brought forth that bad things are not without precedent, and that history is replete with examples of older men and younger girls. To which I added my two coppers, that bad things done in history, used as justification for current or future practices, really make for lousy moral guidelines.
Comparing the relationship between an older man and a younger woman is not relatable to raping and pillaging no matter how you word it.
Have you ever read the novel Jane Eyre? It’s a lovely and revered romantic classic about an 18 year old girl and a middle aged man. There are also positive and beautiful examples through out history supporting such relationships, you just have to open your eyes.
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“Hell is coming to breakfast”
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Quote:
Originally posted by Romanceguru:Quote:
It was brought forth that bad things are not without precedent, and that history is replete with examples of older men with younger girls. To which I added my two coppers, that bad things done in history, used as justification for current or future practices, really make for lousy moral guidelines.
Comparing the relationship between an older man and a younger woman is not relatable to raping and pillaging no matter how you word it.
And I didn't say so, either. I said that pointing to history, to find moral justification in older men dating much younger women, is essentially void, as history is full of very bad things, none of which are repeatworthy, or justifiable, merely because they happened before. By that token, I argued, we might as well start to pillage and rape again, because that too has happened before.
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Have you ever read the novel Jane Eyre? It’s a lovely and revered romantic classic about an 18 year old girl and a middle aged man. There are also positive and beautiful examples through out history supporting such relationships, you just have to open your eyes.
As for Jane Eyre, Jane wasn't at the Academy; and Rochester ain't no Jayne. :)
Actually, now that you mention it, Charlotte Bronte modelled large portions of the story of Jane Eyre after her own life. Studying French, in the early 1840's, she fell in love with her much older Professor. Jane and Rochester overcome many similar obstacles that Charlotte found on her path, What wasn't in the book, though, but actually did happen to Charlotte, was the fact that, in real life, the relationship between her and the Professor was a complete failure, and that she was left with a broken heart, whereas Jane found her love and all was well.
--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam
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I like Jane Eyre as much as the next person -- it is quite an enjoyable book -- but I don't think it applies here at all. Marriages of young women to older men where common in that period, and why? Because marriage was more of a bussiness for women than a romantic persuit. It was all about getting bang for your buck -- a man who you don't mind too much, and maybe even enjoy if you're lucky, in exchange for a lifetime of being taken care of. If you don't think that reality influenced the feelings of women (and women characters) of that time, then you might want to think about it again. If Jane Eyre was born in the later 20th century I don't think she would have been interested in Rochester. She was smart and resourseful and would have gotten a scholarship and gone to college and lived her life indepentently. She wouldn't need him like she does as a women in the 1800s, and probably wouldn't want him because she'd have the opportunity to be with anyone.
Plus, I really don't see how Jane Eyre and River are comparable. Eyre's experiences were sad and somewhat traumatic, but they forced her into independence. River has never been capable of independence, and quite possibly never will be.
If you can't tell already, I am with AR and Asarian on this debate.
Earlier, you asked "what does River have in common with other teenagers?" My answer is that she has a whole, whole lot in common with other teenagers. Even with all her life experience, she is still relatively undiscovered. And by that I mean, she has not explored her personality -- her interests, her hobbies -- for a long time. How long has it been since she's read a book, learned a new dance? She's been busy trying to be not crazy. That doesn't leave much time for the finer points of self-discovery. In this area, she is behind most teens her age and way behind every emotionally mature adult, such as, say, Mal and even Jayne.
She hasn't had time to explore her body. Think about it. Most girls get their periods (and the beginnings of the sexual urges that come with it) between twelve and fourteen (though as early as nine and as late as fifteen). Despite having all the usual hormones, most girls twelve to sixteen don't know what to do with their bodies. They don't know where their... err... pleasure centers are. So, there is another thing, and other reason why it might be more comfortable for River to be with a younger partner. I'm not saying she needs to be with a virgin, but I will say there is a certain comfort in knowing your partner is not too far ahead of you. Sex is complicated. There is all this preassure and expectations... a younger, less experienced partner wouldn't have as many expectations, which can be a comfort.
And River... People keep talking about what she has overcome. As far as I am concerned, she has not really overcome anything. She survived. She lived through hell, and she lived through the confusion that followed, the insanity. Now, it looks like she has gained some clarity. What does that mean? It means it will get even harder. Now, she can go through the horrible process of processing what happened to her. She's never really dealt with what happened to her. How could she? She's had no control over her emotions or her mind, of any part of her life. She has it now, and that is going to be traumatic in its own way. Its a good step in the long run, but it is still going to be a hard adjustment.
Traumas can make people stronger. They can also make people bitter, depressed, emotionally distant, angry, and generally not likeable. They can lead to good people making bad choices out of desperation, confusion, rage... River has a sweetness to her. We see that. But it doesn't mean that she's going to get through all this okay. She still has a lot of healing and growing up to do.
Arcadia (aka Greyfable and/or Katie)
www.stillflying.net -- picking up Firefly were Joss left off. We will hold 'til he gets back.
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