River vs Love?

POSTED BY: OrangeHat
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 17:16
VIEWED: 22673
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MAL4PREZ

Monday, January 15, 2007 8:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Lexan:
I actually think River has a very good idea of what a relationship is, probably more so than anyone else on the ship or in the 'verse. She encompasses an understanding of the components of a relationship far more profound and complex than any other fictional character I have ever seen.

I totally disagree! How could she have any idea? When has River had a chance to interact with people on a human level, to be part of the every day ins and outs of an adult relationship?

Before going to the Academy, she did have the love of her brother and her parents (in their own way). But, given that she was scary-smart and way beyond her peers, she probably went to some high-priced super advanced school - or maybe she was even tutored or home schooled. I'd lay money that being social wasn't her top priority; she was eager to go away for school right? And I very much doubt she was going out for dinner and a movie with any of the boys at the Academy.

So, when she gets to Serenity, she still has the emotion maturity of a (home-schoooled-ish??) 14 year old. And her understanding of relationships probably wasn't helped by undergoing 3 years of torture!

IMHO, a lot of fic writers make the mistake of assuming that because River can read minds, she's some kind of super-psychologist and understands everyone's motivations. I just can't see this. First, she has no context in which to place the things she sees (above argument). Second - she's so scattered! It's not like everything she "reads" is neatly laid out for her to peruse at her leisure. She's got her Miranda madness and her own pain making a mess of her mind. Not to mention the little bits of her brain that got cut out.

She does figure Early out, but he's actually quite similar to her in some ways. (Joss talks about that in the OiS commentary) I think it's a statement Joss intentionally made - that she understands Early very easily but she earns her spot on the crew because she's not bad on the inside like Jubal is.

Another tidbit - in the deleted scenes of the BDM, Joss talks about how he wants to show that she's not just haunted by memories - she is actually crazy.

Yeah, so I don't think she was just playing or being ironic in that CSI scene with Simon. She really is that disconnected.

Okay, enough ranting. Except to say that I'm working on River's approach to romance in the fic I'm working on now. It's a tough thing to handle, but I'm having fun with it. Um - in my usual dark and twisted way.

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I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

ORANGEHAT

Tuesday, January 16, 2007 12:12 AM

I agree with what you said there! You basically hit everything on the nose!!!

That nerdy hat

ODDSBODSKINS

Tuesday, January 16, 2007 1:23 AM

h'mm, interesting topic, but i think it might be wrong to assume that you have to be perfectly sane/rational/functioning/well-adapted to get some benefit, pleasure and enjoyment from a relationship. River at the end of the BDM had regained alot of control over herself, and some insight into herself, and it might just be the case that getting involved in that manner of human interaction could be exactly what she needs in order to make sense of who she is and her role in the world. We find out about relationships by having them, the disasters, the great successes, the middling ones, the stable comforting ones, perhaps, in spite of some emotional immaturity (which i think is simplistic, she combine's immaturity with almost freakish insight throughout both the BDS and the BDM) and i don't think she'll have any way to fill in the gaps in that, to make sense of what insight she gleams and to place what she knows in context, without going through the process of relationships.

as for 'wishing it on her' i'm not of that frame of mind, i'm working hard on not coming up with my own picture for what way the characters should go, so that if the story gets continued i won't come into it with *too* many preconceptions. that's the hope, anyways xD

______________________________
Ah! What is not a dream by day
To him who's eyes are cast
Around him with a ray
Turned back upon the past.

YINYANG

Tuesday, January 16, 2007 1:36 AM

Gosh, figuring out if River could function in a relationship sure would be easier if we'd had more than 14 episodes and a movie, don't'cha think?

Rules on voting here: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=22892

KEVINGREY

Tuesday, January 16, 2007 6:27 AM

First of all, I’m not sure I agree with the “If you can’t love yourself, you can’t love anyone else,” as a statement against the relationship idea.

In my experience, children begin by learning love from their experience of it. From their parents, siblings, other family, etc.

If someone loves you, you can learn what love is for yourself and learn to love yourself, as well.

So, in this way, it could be almost therapeutic for River to be in a relationship. Though, I would agree, Jayne would not be my first choice in this.

In any case, generally speaking, conflict creates story. In addition, life usually does not wait for someone to be prepared before throwing something at them.

In both of these ideas, the concept of a River Relationship seems almost perfect. Simon would have much to be conflicted about in his desire to protect River, vs. the potential of holding her back from learning and growing. River herself would be in conflict and unsure of how to proceed, potentially. And this is just in regards to those two characters.

It could throw a potential monkey wrench into everything. Which, is what stories are generally crafted upon. The conflict/resolution of conflict is what often makes them interesting and the very fact that so many seem to be dead set against the idea, makes it almost to hard to resist in my mind.

Given what I know of Joss, he probably feels much the same way.

LEXAN

Tuesday, January 16, 2007 10:46 AM

MAL4PREZ-

I didn't really say that River would be able to function well in a relationship due to her infinite understanding. I was more implying that because River has an extremely high analytical and intuitive intelligence, she is able to understand what relationships in general (and certain relationships) are about. However, I feel this understanding brings about a confusion to River, this resulting in her not being able to deal with her thoughts. Hence, she understands them, she doesn't 'comprehend' them. River is constantly (but not purposefully) over-analysing all the people, emotions, thoughts and ideas she ‘senses’ and as a result suffers from a ‘scattered’ mind.

I also think River, in contrast to her high analytical intelligence, may have a low social intelligence (which means a romantic relationship wouldn't bode well for her...).
Then again, there's the moment in 'Shindig' when she completely mimics Badger's personality and really gets into the inner workings of his mind. This really is proof that she is, in fact, a 'super-psychologist and understands everyone's motivations'...which she does.

But yeah... I think her considerably superior analytical intelligence severely impairs her social intelligence.

Also, I can see why people think that something might be going on with Jayne... it's just the age difference that makes the idea less plausible.

MAL4PREZ

Tuesday, January 16, 2007 3:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Lexan:
I didn't really say that River would be able to function well in a relationship due to her infinite understanding. I was more implying that because River has an extremely high analytical and intuitive intelligence, she is able to understand what relationships in general (and certain relationships) are about.

Now see, I myself have a pretty high level of analytical and intuitive intelligence, and that's meaned squat as far as relationships. Less than squat. I do my best when I shut my brain off. Seriously! Logic skills and life skills are two completely different things. (as you pretty much say in your post!)

Quote:
River is constantly (but not purposefully) over-analysing all the people, emotions, thoughts and ideas she ‘senses’ and as a result suffers from a ‘scattered’ mind.

I agree - but doesn't this disagree with what you say above? Also, I must note that her scattered mind is largely from actual physical damage to her brain, and the trauma of being basically imprisoned and tortured, not just from hearing voices in her mind from the people presently in her life.

Quote:
Then again, there's the moment in 'Shindig' when she completely mimics Badger's personality and really gets into the inner workings of his mind. This really is proof that she is, in fact, a 'super-psychologist and understands everyone's motivations'...which she does.

Not so much, I say. She apes his accent and sees a few of his memories, and makes fun of him. He just happens to go for that (IMO - largely because it was such a good joke on Badger, to have him like getting insulted by a pretty girl) If she was super-psych she wouldn't have come out there and endangered the crew! And knifed Jayne, and gotten all at odds with the Shepherd over his bible, etc...

Anyway, what I was going for was more a dig at the fic writers who get the couple of their choice together by having River say that one perfect sentence. Suddenly it all comes clear for our starcrossed lovers. **cue chorus and harps, much sex ensues** That's just silly. River gets lots of information about the people around her, but she has no way to apply it. Maybe, eventually, she will. But not during the series or right after the movie.

I do agree with other posters that a relationship would be good for River. Absolutely! She needs to learn, and it's about time for her to start living like a real person. But I absolutely cannot see her jumping into a mature, adult relationship with ease. It's going to be a struggle. As for who she'd be with? Hard, hard call there. I can't see it happening with any of the crew, not until we got to, say, seasons 6 and 7 and she's grown up a lot. (who's bitter? Not me.

)

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I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

LEXAN

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 1:20 AM

I agree with you about how having a good analytical intelligence does mean anything when it comes to relationships and life skills (intuitive intelligence would probably help though...). But that wasn't what I said. I was saying that, because she can understand what a relationship is on an analytical level, it is unfair to say she has no idea what a relationship is and what it's about (this is why I never took that deleted scene seriously…). Though, I can also say that River might have difficulty understanding it on a human level, because sometimes it seems as if River can't quite come to terms with the fact that she is a human being herself (this was demonstrated in 'Serenity' when Mal said that if River thought she wasn't a human being, actual and whole, she'd best shoot and she cocked the gun).

I think that the only single entity in the 'verse that River doesn't have an intricate understanding of (I still think she has an intricate understanding of what a relationship is) is herself. She's forced to spend so much time on what surrounds her, she hardly ever is able to try to figure herself out. If the series had continued, River probably would have developed a more distinguished personality, outside her expected psychotic behaviour. This behaviour and the dialogue that came with it was really only River’s perception and a reflection of everyone and everything else she saw. A relationship would mean she'd be able to explore and understand herself more and would lead to some interesting development for the character...

ORANGEHAT

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 2:32 AM

Wow I have so many things to comment about.
First off I LOVE that scene in Serenity when River cocks the gun and puts it against her head, God that made me love her all over again!
Secondly River does have a personality, shes a bit of a brat (as stated by Simon many times) people can't get past the parts where shes crazy to really see the times when shes not. She reminds me of a good friend of mine actually, kinda lost and wondering where to go and whats worth her time. She knows everything yet lacks the ability to really apply it (thats not stated right..) so she tends to just go off with really deep emotional or sometimes blunt or morbid things without really reconizing the effect they could have on anyone she would rather watch their reactions to the things she says. Its almost like she has this hidden "motive" behind everything she says like a curiosity about the people shes talking to (and you have to admit if you had a reason to be crazy and have people would except you for it, wouldn't you take advantage of that from time to time? ...Perhaps its just me, and does that make me a bad person.....NEVER THE LESS) River states it best herself. She understands but she does not comprehend.
Another thing! I don't know what kind of relationships ya'll have experienced but relaxing ain't exactly how I'd discribe them. Sure it would be a learning experience but I don't think it would be meditating or horribly healing for the soul. That's what bubble baths are for. You got the rubber ducky...things just can't go wrong. I'm also kinda against relationships in general, why does every character have to HAVE someone out there for them. We just get to all the juicy tidbits about their lives and BAM love side swipes us and now its no longer about who that character is its about will so and so sleep with so and so?!!!!!?!?!?!? Sexual tension is okay but I find its used on sooooooo many shows (Greys Anatomy anyone?) And River as an 'entity' is pretty freakin interesting enough without the whole yearning love thing goin on. I think it might take away from the character building I crave.

That nerdy hat

LEXAN

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 2:54 AM

I agree that River does have a personality... and a very interesting personality at that. I just don't think this personality is being communicated through River’s own experiences and inclinations. Her personality sort of forces its way through what she says and implies, which is mostly about other people and issues that have nothing to do with her ( apart from the fact she knows about them). I would have liked to see her explain and understand herself more. River’s likes, dislikes, leanings, opinions and belief were always somewhat indistinct. She never once (unless I’m wrong?) said a sentence that started with ‘I feel’ or ‘I believe’ which addressed particular subject matters…

About River’s tricking Badger in Shindig… she wasn’t endangering the crew at all. You’ll notice that, at the very moment Jayne says ‘What we need is a diversion’ River appears instantaneously. So I think she was really trying to do them a favour…

When she slashed Jayne with the knife in Ariel, I believe it was because she wanted to both communicate to the crew about blue sun (which for some reason she can’t coherently) and indicate what Jayne was planning on doing (assuming Jayne was already thinking of selling Simon and River to the feds)…

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