The Next Heroes Thread
POSTED BY: Cybersnark
UPDATED: Monday, January 22, 2007 13:17
VIEWED: 14758
PAGE 2 of 9
I had been wondering about this for some time, but evidently they are going to whack one of the Heroes. So who is it?
Nathan? He’s really only important as a vehicle to rattle Peter, on the other hand, he can fly. That's always cool.
Claire? She would seem to be the most unexpected, since presumably the show just made a big point of saving her. Yet, killing Claire seems like a real trick.
D.L.? Well, presumably he’s already dead, so this would be the other extreme on the unexpected scale.
Isaac? He really seems like a crucial character. His particular talent is really needed to foreshadow the plot. I can’t see him getting it.
Hiro? Also, pretty crucial to the story and we pretty much know he survives well into the future.
Not sure about the others.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Considering this episode was mostly backstory on things we already knew it was pretty damn good. Hiro's story just keeps getting better, it looks like he is unable to go back in order to fix things. At least we won't have some lame ass season ending do over.
My favorite bit in this episode was the introduction of Sylar. Hard to believe that he was set on that path simply by having someone tell him he might be special. Hopefully we will see more of his interactions with the professor. Anyone else notice the similarites between Sylar/Gabriel and a certain character who changed his name after turning to evil? You know the one...delusions of grandeur, desire for more power, overblown sense of entitlement. Anyone here who didn't already hate Sylar probably will now. I'm starting to like the guy. What I really want to see is how they plan on holding him. Also, why keep him alive in the first place? Mr. Bennett can't actually believe he is going to join that little band of misfits.
On a similar note, I wonder if Claire's dad is going to come clean after she tells him about her ability. Maybe he'll sign her up then send her off to mutie boot camp.
As I stated in another thread if someone is going to die I really want it to be Nikki. I still don't like her. So her ability was to absorb her dead sister's personality and presumbaly her super strength as well. Sounds a bit like Rogue(comic book not the movies) but without the charm. I wouldn't mind seeing Sylar break free then kill those two henchmen. I'm a bit sick of them as well. Unfortunately I don't usually get my way so I'm guessing that our friendly mind reading police officer is going to buy the farm.
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We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.
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They shouldn't kill the Haitian yet; he's the only "wild card" left. We know nothing about his origin, backstory, or even his name. Note that he has the Symbol on his pendant; suggesting that he has some significance. Also note that the symbol seems to have originated with Chandra's research --so why is it hanging around the neck of one of Glasses' "X-team."
And I don't wanna see Eden go, I'm just starting to really like her.
Man, what an episode last night. Joss would've been proud; it went from making me laugh hard enough to choke (Hiro's "Back to the Future" moment: "Greatu Scott!!") to tearing my heart out (poor Charlie, poor Hiro).
I'm really confused at the time-alterations. As near as I can tell, there's the original timeline (where Hiro met Charlie in the present, she was eventually killed by Sylar, Hiro jumped back in time), and the new timeline (where Hiro went back 6 months, failed to save Charlie, and reflexively jumped back to the near-present [it must've been at least a few days ago, if he was able to grab a flight and catch up to Ando]). Of course, Hiro didn't do anything to accellerate the blood clot, so Charlie would still have been alive when Sylar arrived to kill her, regardless of timeline (so he'd now have photographic memory).
These are irreconcileable: in the new timeline, Charlie would've known Hiro when he arrived, as would everyone else in town. If the changing timeline "re-merged" (rewriting the "real" timeline), it could've rewritten everyone's memories, but Ando's own memories would've been rewritten as well.
It's very odd that Ando can still remember the original timeline. His exception requires some kind of conscious force --authorial intervention. Could that be Ando's power? Limited omniscience? An "untamperable" mind?
Whatever the reason, he's now a living, breathing "rift" between two timelines. He could very well start something catastrophic --something that would force Hiro to have to take out his best friend. . .
Maybe some kind of "Crisis" event (I know I've been joking about it thus far [about needing a speedster 'cause, y'know, it's not a Crisis without a dead Flash], but the time-travel has made me anxious --rewriting the past always has consequences). Of course, that diner is now the place where all the timelines are connected. If the "rift" is to be fixed, it'll likely need to be from there.
I have a feeling we'll be seeing Charlie again, even if only in Hiro's mind.
Oh, and the new comic's up: http://www.nbc.com/Heroes/novels/novel_010.shtml,featuring Audrey's first face-to-face meeting with Sylar. The Easter Egg isn't much this week, just a "making of" picture from an earlier episode.
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We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.
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Quote:Well I think we can expect that history was rewritten. There is at least two things that evince this, first the picture of Hiro and Charlie which appeared following his going back in time and second a conversation that Ando had with one of the waitresses that suggested that the waitress was very familiar with Hiro, when in the previous timeline she had never met him. This means that memories were rewritten, including probably Ando’s.
Originally posted by Cybersnark:
These are irreconcileable: in the new timeline, Charlie would've known Hiro when he arrived, as would everyone else in town. If the changing timeline "re-merged" (rewriting the "real" timeline), it could've rewritten everyone's memories, but Ando's own memories would've been rewritten as well.
We can assume, then that when Hiro and Ando arrived at the dinner, Charlie was already familiar with Hiro and probably wondering why he vanished into thin air 6 months earlier, and Hiro already knew that Charlie was going to get sylarated. The events that we saw in H1.8, no longer happened that way, yet clearly it would seem that the outcome was the same. Ando’s memory would be of the new timeline, which we can assume must have Hiro vanishing for several hours to possibly days.
It’s not necessarily the case that the timelines are irreconcilable, from Ando’s frame of reference. They could be, but we don’t know what the new timeline is, from Ando’s frame of reference. We can, however, be sure that the events in the dinner as depicted in episode 8, from everyone’s frame of reference except Hiro’s, never happened.
As for whether the events are irreconcilable from Hiro’s frame of reference:
Austin: So, Basil, if I travel back to 1969 and I was frozen in 1967, presumably, I could go back and look at my frozen self. But, if I'm still frozen in 1967, how could I have been unthawed in the '90s and traveled back to the '60s?
[goes cross-eyed]
Austin: Oh, no, I've gone cross-eyed.
Basil: I suggest you don't worry about those things and just enjoy yourself.
[to camera]
Basil: That goes for you all, too.
Austin: Yes.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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I don't think it's that complex. You know how in BACK TO THE FUTURE 2, when Doc and Marty came back to an alternate 1985. They still had their memories of their past lives.
The way I see it, there's no big continuity error the first time Hiro met Charlie. They're still in the original timeline. When Hiro transports back six months ago, that was the beginning of an alternate reality. And given that Ando's been with Hiro all this time, that makes Ando an unofficial time traveler, even though he has no abilities himself. So he'[d still have those memories of the past life.
And besides, what Hiro did was miniscule in the grand scheme of things. Charlie was going to die. But instead of her having the top of her head cut off while at work, she just decided to actually live her life before she died. And in the six months, she would have probably died by then. Just because there's a vigil at the restaurant doesn't mean that she was Sylerized (since we're calling it that). It means that she died.
All Hiro changed really was the way she died. That doesn't mean there'll be SOUND OF THUNDER like waves that'll transform the planet into a jungle. It just means that there'll be a small variation to the overall grand scheme of things.
I wasn't really thinking of the logics of the time travel in this ep. As far as time travel stories go, this show is actually really good in terms of following the rules of time travel. I love Hiro slamming the phone down as soon as he hears his past self answer. He's smart enough not to create a paradox.
I was geeking out more over the WATCHMAN refrence in the ep. How the villain was the son of a watchmaker, just like Dr. Manhattan was before he got de-atomized and blue. And as a 24 fan, I was slightly psyched to see the guy that played Adam from Day 3 cast as Sylar. At first I thought it was Sean, when he had the glasses on. That would have been a hell of career boost. To go from the most selfless hero in a low rated cult show, to the selfish villain of a highly rated cult show. Oh well, there's always the next one.
I still don't understand how Sylar attains their powers from their brains. Does he eat the brain, or do a mind meld, or does routine brain surgery on himself? I'm hoping that'll be answered soon.
Other things I picked up on that I liked. When Micha's grandfather caught him taking apart the laptop he bought. I could understand him getting angry over him taking apart a two thousand dollar piece of equipment, but shouldn't he have known by then that Micha's so smart that he was in the process of reverse engineering it to make the computer even better than before? Techies do this all the time, right? And I loved the moment that Nate discovers his powers just as he's driving home in a convertible and being chased by mobsters, and that look of helplessness on him as he's looking from above as the car carrying his wife slams into water barrels and paralyzes her. It really explains why he's in so much denial about his powers.
As for who dies, guess we'll have to wait and see.
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"We have five million Cybermen. How many are you?"
"Four"
You would destroy the Cybermen with four Daleks?"
"We would destroy the Cybermen with ONE Dalek. You are superior in only one respect."
"What is that?"
"You are better at dying."
Trash talk between a Cyberman and a Dalek. It doesn't get any better than that.
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Okay, time paradox head butting time. Getting my Doc Brown geek on here...
Let's call the Charlie we saw in the earlier episode Charlie-one. Charlie-one's eidetic memory had only kicked in a couple of weeks earlier, and had never met Hiro before; she got to know him just a little when Sylar killed her.
So Hiro jumped back to try and prevent her death. Lets call the younger version of Charlie he met in the past time frame Charlie-two. Charlie-two's life diverged slightly from Charlie-one's at the point when Hiro entered her life prematurely. Firstly her eidetic memory began to manifest somewhat earlier (probably due to Hiro's gentle prodding), and then she fell in love with this boyishly charming Japanese geek. Perhaps if Hiro had been able to stay, she would have gone to Japan, and not been in Sylar's line of fire, preserving whatever days, weeks, or years she had left..
But then Hiro was forced back to the present before he'd given Charlie-two the exact date and circumstances of her death at Sylar's hands. She knew he came from October, and that he was worried that a bad man would hurt her, but he'd never given her the specifics -- probably waiting until he'd fully convinced her, so as not to further freak her out.
So Charlie-two decided to wait until Hiro returned. We can imagine the circumstances were slightly different--the Hiro she met in October hadn't traveled back in time yet, and was probably confused when people at the Burnt Toast Diner recognized him. But he probably still bonded to Charlie--just in time for her to be killed.
And so he went back in time six months to try and save her. The details are changed, but the general flow of events remains the same.
The factor nobody seems to be discussing is why did Hiro snap back to the present? Why did it happen at that exact instant, just as he was, perhaps, about to convince her to take action to preserve whatever days were left to her from Sylar?
I think it happened at that instant exactly because he was about to convince her. That would have led to a paradox, since the only reason he jumped back in time to save her in the first place was because she was killed. Time needed to protect itself from a paradox--so it removed him from the past, and shielded itself from his attempts to return.
So what do we know about the rules of time travel in this universe so far? Well...
1. We know Hiro can alter the past to some small extent -- because he appeared in Charlie's birthday photos, but only after his time jump.
2. We know he can alter an anticipated or predicted future, because he saved that Japanese schoolgirl from becoming road sushi.
3. But despite this, he cannot initiate a paradox without being exiled from the time he is attempting to alter. (This is probably the meaning of the "rift" future Hiro feared causing when he had his conversation with Peter.
And now, here's the $64.00 question: What about the potential fate of New York? Hiro saw the Big Apple get baked--if he stops this from happening, does that count as a paradox? Or does the fact that this event hasn't yet happened (in an absolute sense) exempt them from being a paradox?
"Oh dear, my eyes have gone all crossed..."
"Time Paradoxes give me migraines." -- Captain Kathryn Janeway
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Oh, and a P.S.: Since in either timeline Sylar apparently consumed Charlie's brain, we can assume he now has eidetic memory--but does he also have her aneurysm? Granted, that normally wouldn't happen through cannibalism of brain tissue--but hell, who knows what the rules are in this case?
(It's noteworthy that in the real world, freak savant abilities sometimes pop up in people with cranial blood clots--a kind of "I burn my candle at both ends" effect. Could there be a connection here?)
"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn
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Interesting theory, but there's one thing that you didn't mention that could alter the validity of the theory.
We know for a fact that there's a vigil for Charlie in the Burnt Toast. What we don't know is if after Hiro went back in time to save her, if she died because of Sylar chopping the top of her head off, or if she finally succumbed to the blood clot in her brain. So for all we know, he did convince her and she did take that trip to Japan and was nowhere near Sylar when she died.
With that in mind, whether or not Hiro fucked things up royally for the future is still up for discussion. As for "Can he stop NYC from being blown up?", I think it's more of a group thing. That the rest of the season is going to be the characters all finally coming together in a room and figuring out an attack plan to keep NYC from blowing up. He'll play a big part in it for sure, but as to whether he and he alone determines the fate of the world, I'm not sure.
**************************************************
"We have five million Cybermen. How many are you?"
"Four"
You would destroy the Cybermen with four Daleks?"
"We would destroy the Cybermen with ONE Dalek. You are superior in only one respect."
"What is that?"
"You are better at dying."
Trash talk between a Cyberman and a Dalek. It doesn't get any better than that.
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Well, we know that Sylar still killed Charlie, because Ando explains the situation to Peter Pattrelli. So she was definitely killed by Sylar. Twist top removed, contents emptied. Sorry Charlie.
As to why Hiro can never stop something that already happened, if you ever saw the remake of "The Time Machine" you've already got your answer. The reason he can't stop it, is because IT is the reason he went back in the first place. Take away that incident, there's no reason to go back.
Now, given this type of thoery, I have no doubt at some time in the future the writers of the show will likely bend the rules to explain something else later on, but that's called creative license and I'm willing ot accept it without losing any sleep.
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No, maybe, okay, so maybe Sylar didn't kill Charlie. Think about it, she has that whole brain thingie, right? All we know is that Charlie is dead. Maybe Ando's memories didn't change with everyone else's for some reason, okay? So, where does that leave us? With a still dead Charlie. But I don't think that the point was to save Charlie. Oh, no. I think that the point was for Hiro to learn something. That something being that sometimes things just happen. You go back in time, you try to change it, and sometimes things just end up being the way that they are. Yeah right, you say, that's the stupidest thing I ever heard. But think about it, so Hiro has this ability, why doesn't the future (cool samurai) him just go back and save Claire, or save Charlie for that matter or whatever once he gets his time traveling powers under control? I think he learns something in addition to this lesson about fussing around with the space time continuum, and is reasonably happy with the way things turn out. Also, I would like it noted that since Hiro shows up from the future he can't obviously be the one that dies next week. Or two weeks from now or whenever the frick this new ep is coming on. I hate this mid-season breaks! They didn't used to do that so much, did they. Lost isn't going to be back for like 12 weeks or something. Ugh.
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