Mandatory vaccinations vs. right to choose
POSTED BY: canttakesky
UPDATED: Thursday, December 7, 2006 07:56
VIEWED: 21145
PAGE 11 of 21
CTS
I'd like to step in here about pertussis. It's well known the vaccine (or infection) doesn't confer life-long immunity. And (from a lecture I attended on new and re-emerging infections) roughly 10% of a population doesn't mount a vigorous immune response (possibly linked to low IgA). But every paper I've read - and literally every link you provided - said that innoculation results in fewer outbreaks and/ or less severe disease. The paper you linked (from Israel BTW, not the US 
) makes a case FOR innoculation as modifying the prevalence and severity of disease.
I was curious about the paper you cited, b/c it used the term modified WHO definition. I couldn't find what that meant.
Added: in fact every link you provided for 'subclinical infection' states infection rates are far lower in vaccinated populations; and if infection occurs, vaccination results in mild or inapparent infection. That to me indicates vaccination is doing what it should. Some people still have effective antibody levels. Others premeptively invoke their 'memory cells' to remount an antibody to exposure, leading to mild infection.
If that doesn't make a case for vaccination, I don't know what does.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
The FACT is that mass polio vaccination works. If you don't want to trust the evidence of hundreds of thousands of paralyzed UN-vaccinated people and NO paralyzed vaccinated people (how DO you ignore that?), then look to the modern world (pick up your head and smell the coffee, dude) where polio is still a health threat.
My friend got polio, no big deal. No harm no foul. THEN many years later he got "post polio syndrome", which fucked him up really bad. Something was spreading a new strain of polio. Probably all the live virus "vaccines". Plus his own immunity was crippled by all the other "vaccines" he was conned into volunteering for.
His son is now an ER doctor, yet his son hates to be around his dad because he's "embarrassed" by the extreme disability and disfigurement.
As a survivor of the Jewish Death Camps in Communist Lithuania during WW2, he's painfully aware of how deadly the "Jews" are, who ran all the concentration camps. His family literally had to kill their way out of the country, preferring the Nazis over the Commies, before reaching USA. He knows the Jews are hell-bent on destroying USA, but he's still shellshocked that all his Republican heros are actually Jews, like Rush "Oxycontin" Limbaugh and virtually the entire Jr Bush White House. He dosn't want to face the fact that the medical industrial complex is merely a cover story for the US Death Camp gulag sytem, run by the Jews, that genocided over 50-million US citizens so far in just the past 30 years.
Obviously, only an insane lunatic moron would ever trust a doctor with a loaded needle.
Injections are designed to bypass your immune system, as a bioweapons delivery system. Just like the British Empire used blankets as bioweapons to genocide native Americans, via Smallpox-infected fleas as bioweapons delivery systems. Now Pentagon and Canada grew encephalitis in mosquitos and turned them loose on Florida. DOH!
Dr Julie Gerberding runs Jewish Centers for Disease Creation Level 5 Bioweapons Lab
www.vaccinetruth.org
"I used to give vaccinations and got dozens of vaccinations during the Gulf War. But I'll NEVER give or take another vaccination as long as I live!"
-Capt Joyce Riley RN USAF, co-host The Power Hour Radio Show, founder Gulf War Vets Assn
www.thepowerhour.com
www.GulfWarVets.com
FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php
http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=8cd2bd0379340120e7a6ed00f2a53ee5
.1044556
www.myspace.com/piratenewsctv
www.piratenews.org
Does that seem right to you?
www.scifi.com/onair/
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Quote:What?
Originally posted by rue:
I was wondering what you say about the quarter to half million unvaccinated people in the US with paralysis;
Quote:What?
and the dearth of paralyzed people after universal vaccination.
If you mean the 274,000 who had been paralyzed by polio (remember, paralysis rarely is permanent in polio, so most of these people have most likely recovered and are no longer paralyzed), and the absence of polio paralysis outbreaks, I have already shared my comments. To reiterate, the quarter of a million people most likely included misdiagnosed cases, and contracted the diseases when all infectious diseases were still prevalent. As ALL these infectious diseases declined (including Coxsackie, echovirus, etc), there have been less and less people getting paralyzed by them.
There is one more thing I would like to mention, though I don't have time to reference it now. The Salk vaccine is known to CAUSE polio and turn vaccine recipients into carriers that spread the disease. As awareness of this problem increased, people took steps to resolve it, and incidence of vaccine-induced polio declined as well. This accounts for the reduction of polio incidence in a subset of polio cases.
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
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Must the citizen ever for a moment, or in the least degree, resign his conscience to the legislator? Why has every man a conscience, then? I think that we should be men first, and subjects afterward.
--Henry David Thoreau, On Civil Disobedience
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Quote:That is what ALL papers say, no matter what the researchers might have discovered. They'll find an instance where the vaccine failed to work, and then recommend more of it because "they prevent fewer outbreaks and save lives." Or a vaccine caused injuries, and then recommend more of it "because they prevent fewer outbreaks and save lives." It's an advertising slogan, like "A choice for a new generation," or "Think outside the bun."
Originally posted by rue:
But every paper I've read - and literally every link you provided - said that innoculation results in fewer outbreaks and/ or less severe disease.
You can hail that slogan as fact; that's fine. I am not here to change what you think. But you know I disagree.
For me, the slogan is like an annoying advertisement they put on all the papers. I choose to look at the findings proper, and look at which conclusions can be rationally supported by the findings, subject to scientific standards. I have said that most of these papers are crap, but that doesn't mean they have no good information at all. It is like sorting through a junk yard; you look for what is scientifically defensible (supported by the DATA WITHIN THE PAPER) and ignore the rest.
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
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Fear is the main source of superstition, and one of the main sources of cruelty. To conquer fear is the beginning of wisdom.
--Bertrand Russell, Unpopular Essays (1950), "Outline of Intellectual Rubbish"
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Quote:CTS- I remember polio quite clearly because one of my relatives was a Kenney therapist for polio. Look it up. Back then, that- and the iron lung- were the only treatments available. The paralysis that you claim was a case of mass misdiagnosis was real, and it was due to an EPIDEMIC in 1955.
To reiterate, the quarter of a million people most likely included misdiagnosed cases, and contracted the diseases when all infectious diseases were still prevalent.As ALL these infectious diseases declined (including Coxsackie, echovirus, etc), there have been less and less people getting paralyzed by them.
www.uwosh.edu/news_bureau/releases/jun03/polio.php
www.foxvalleyhistory.org/turningpoints/polio/polio-sixcases.html
Quote:
Polio was one of the most dreaded childhood diseases of the 20th Century in the United States. An epidemic in 1916 killed 6,000 people and left 27,000 more paralyzed. In the 1950's, parents refused to let their children go to movies or go swimming for fear of catching the disease.
Most of us don’t remember how terrified parents were that polio would leave their children unable to walk or force them to spend the rest of their life in an iron lung. Since polio vaccine became available in 1955 the disease has disappeared from the U.S., and may soon be gone from the rest of the world as well. The number of cases of paralytic polio in the United States has fallen from more than 20,000 in 1952 to only a few cases a year today.
Polio is still endemic in South Asia and Africa. Out of approximately 50 acquaintances from that area (people that I knew by name and met regularly) TWO were partially paralyzed from polio and suffer from post-polio syndrome. And that's the UPPER strata- those with enough money to come to the USA.
I understand your concern about vaccines, but when you make claims about epidemic diseases 'not being that bad' .... Let me put it this way: Your stronger argument is "alternative approaches", o'wise you wind up having to hand-wave smallpox, polio, pertussis, measles, and other epidemics out of existance and that just ain't gonna fly.
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Quote:And no one ever said the paralysis wasn't REAL. The question is, was the paralysis (and the various outbreaks) caused by the poliovirus, or Coxsackie, or echovirus, or any number of enteroviruses that present similar symptoms?
Originally posted by SignyM:
The paralysis that you claim was a case of mass misdiagnosis was real, and it was due to an EPIDEMIC in 1955.
If you don't like asking these types of questions, that is fine. Not asking you to. Some of us do like to question this "faith" in vaccines and come to our own conclusions. And should we arrive at a conclusion different from yours, we want the right and freedom to act on OUR own convictions on OUR own bodies and those of the children we care for.
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
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There is more hunger for love and appreciation in this world than for bread.
--Mother Teresa
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CTS:
Quote:So basically what you're saying is that in a fully vaccinated population disease outbreaks are generally MILDER or even INVISIBLE with the exception of a a few. In other words- the vaccine is DOING ITS JOB by boosting circulating antibodies ahead of time and lessening the course of the disease... to the point of making it invisible. So instead of a deadly epidemic, you have an annoying one.
It is widely documented that people often still get the disease for which they were vaccinated, but either do not show any symptoms, or show milder symptoms than normal. This impacts the vaccine debate in two ways:
(1) Subclinical disease usually does not get diagnosed. This decreases the true incidence of the disease and exaggerates the effectiveness of the vaccine.
(2) Persons with subclinical disease often spread the disease to others unknowingly. In contrast, unvaccinated persons with full-blown symptoms are easy targets for blame. This can make unvaccinated persons look completely responsible for transmission when vaccinated persons are silently infecting others.
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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CTS- So the polio epidemic wasn't polio? It was several viruses that just "happened" to occur at the same time, and that the deaths and paralyses were due to a confluence of diseases with symptoms "similar" to polio?
Right. And the smallpox epidemics weren't really smallpox, and measles epidemics weren't really measles, pertussis wasn't really pertussis, diptheria was just another masquerading disease?
I'm with Rue on this one. You have SOMETHING against vaccines. So much so that you would prefer a full-blown infection - with all of it's toxins and serious side effects (including death)- instead of being exposed to killed bacteria or viruses, cell fragments, polysaccharides, etc.
So what is it about vaccines that "bug" you (so to speak) so much? Is it mercury? The fact that they're bunched up? Given early? The media that they're grown on? The potential for "tag-along" viruses? The fact that big pharmas control their production? None of the above? All of the above? Something else?
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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CTS,
It's not that you disagree, it's that you will to not see a mountain of facts. "There is none so blind as those who will not see", or, you can see anything if you use the right filters.
You're arguing invalid points. You're trying to show that 1) no vaccine works well, if at all and 2) vaccination risk is just as high, if not higher, than the disease. This puts you clearly in the anti-vaccination camp despite your protestations. And you're distorting your perception of reality in order to justify a pre-conceived conclusion - that since the choice between vaccination and disease is a wash, you get your "free" - and guilt free - choice. Your whole argument is geared to making YOU feel blameless for anything bad that might happen.
By memory, you've argued against rabies vaccines, polio vaccines, smallpox vaccines, measles vaccines, and pertussis vaccines. If I looked I'd probably find more. In other words - you are anti-vaccination. Period.
Getting back to polio, yes some people are paralyzed by other viruses. But surveillance indicates a very low rate of non-polio AFP. "an expected annual background incidence of approximately one case of AFP per 100,000 in the population < 15 years old in the absence of wild poliovirus transmission". http://cat.inist.fr/? aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=2579276 Finally, polio peaked in the US in 1951, 1954, and 1956, and didn't drop until after the introduction of polio vaccines. http://www.healthsentinel.com/graphs.php?id=51&event=graphs_print_list
_item Now, you may claim that this is due to relabelling of paralysis, but the fact is there was very little non-polio paralysis. (see above)
You don't bring numbers to prove your case that non-polio paralysis is and was a major fact, or that non-polio paralysis conveniently disappears with polio vaccination historically or concurrently, or that contemporary polio vaccination should not be a major public health measure to prevent paralysis around the globe - because you can't. You keep reciting the same tired mantras over and over to make yourself feel good about your decisions. Good luck with that.
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Quote:Not really, and I didn't start any back and forth bickering, I was attacked and responded in kind. What position do you think I hold that won't change? All I've been so far is pigeon-holed by Frem as some sort of jack booted Nazi-Lemming for daring, DARING to say perhaps people should take responsibility for their choices.
Originally posted by canttakesky:
If you have a pointed question that hasn't been covered, I will gladly answer. But I don't see a point in back-and-forth bickering, do you?
Which was my assertion. If you make the choice to go without vaccination, you should pay for your treatment if you fall ill. Why should other people foot the bill for your treatment if your contraction of the disease was caused by your actions? If of course you caught the disease despite being vaccinated you took all required precautions, and so the bill for your treatment should be undertaken by either your medical insurer or health authority, perhaps with the possibility of recouping the cost from the manufacturer of the vaccination depending on the situation.
If you make the choice to vaccinate your child and that vaccination turns out to cause Autism then you can sue the manufacturer of that vaccination not only for the cost of your child's care, but also damages. The company would have to foot the bill for negative side effects resulting from their own actions and choices. Similarly why should someone who chooses not to vaccinate not be held responsible for the negative impact if any of their choice?
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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