Mandatory vaccinations vs. right to choose
POSTED BY: canttakesky
UPDATED: Thursday, December 7, 2006 07:56
VIEWED: 21145
PAGE 8 of 21
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
IF your children get the disease the effects WILL be worse than from vaccination.
A few years ago, my husband came home one day with a cough. Next day, I and our 2 yr old daughter were coughing too. The cough in my husband and me were mild, and went away after a few days. My daughter's cough quickly turned into a series of spasms punctuated by a gag reflex. We had all contracted pertussis. Had it not been for my daughter's symptoms, we would have been none the wiser. My 2 yr old was completely fine in between coughs, though the coughs themselves were very uncomfortable. She had it for a few weeks. I kept her home for 3 months, though my husband went to work, and I went grocery shopping. The biggest suffering caused by pertussis was lack of a social life for 3 months.
So again, I respectfully disagree with you that the disease WILL be worse than the vaccination. I have talked to quite a few others whose children have had pertussis, and while it was not fun or comfortable, it was not dangerous at all. Many educated parents and professionals believe the only true danger pertussis poses is to very young infants, whose respiratory systems may succumb to the spasms. If there is a way to protect them without risking my children, I would gladly do so. But I am not going to pretend their lives are worth more than my children's lives. And that's assuming the pertussis vaccine prevents transmission, which is questionable given the increasing number of subclinical pertussis that is occurring.
Just because I don't care about society as much as I love my children does not mean I don't care about society at all. I prefer to find solutions for society that don't risk the health of my children, or anyone else's children. There has got to be a better way, but we're not looking for it because we are too busy defending the current way. If I could influence policy, I would put a LOT more effort doing much better vaccine research, instead of the infomercial and whitewashing crap the pharm corporations put out.
I offered the example of the mother with 2 autistic children (whose symptoms started shortly after vaccination) who doesn't want her third vaccinated. She would rather risk measles, mumps, and rubella (which come and go) than another case of autism (which is permanently disabling). From what I am hearing on this board, most folks here concur with authorities in denying her that choice.
I guess you've answered my question.
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
----------
Politicians are the same all over. They promise to build a bridge even where there is no river.
--Nikita Khrushchev (1894 - 1971)
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If gangsters in govt cared anything about public health and disease prevention, they would close the gorram borders! They would not invite 200-million more illegal aliens to USA in the next 20 years, all without any attempt at medical screening. Millions of these diseased illegal aliens will be serving your food, and sitting next to your kids in govt skools... Doh!
BOHEMIAN GROVE BOHEMIAN GROVE BOHEMIAN GROVE BOHEMIAN GROVE!!!! Funny how folks get instant amnesia at the horror that our world dictators romp nekked peeing on the California redwoods. Funny how no skools teach that fact of history for the past 125 years. Funny how the Media Mafia keeps that Top Secret...
"You can't stop the signal! Unless you kill me with illegal alien diseases."
-Mr Universe, Pirate TV
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Quote:I don't know how long the infectious period is for pertussis. I wonder if your husband should have gone to work. He COULD have spread it to someone with a baby at home.... that's how this stuff happens. SignyM
A few years ago, my husband came home one day with a cough. Next day, I and our 2 yr old daughter were coughing too. The cough in my husband and me were mild, and went away after a few days. My daughter's cough quickly turned into a series of spasms punctuated by a gag reflex. We had all contracted pertussis. Had it not been for my daughter's symptoms, we would have been none the wiser. My 2 yr old was completely fine in between coughs, though the coughs themselves were very uncomfortable. She had it for a few weeks. I kept her home for 3 months, though my husband went to work, and I went grocery shopping. The biggest suffering caused by pertussis was lack of a social life for 3 months.- CTS
Quote:CTS: What you're doing is comparing the BEST case pertussis infection with the WORST case vaccination effect. That's not a fair, reasonable, or intellectually honest comparison. Yes, in most cases pertussis is a self-limiting disease. But in most people, the vaccination itself has even fewer side effects than the disease. Looking at the "worst" end of the spectrum, pertussis can be fatal; with modern medicine the fatality rate is about 0.5% (500/ 1,000,000) and the encephalopathy rate is about 0.3% (300/ 1,000,000). www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1184075
So again, I respectfully disagree with you that the disease WILL be worse than the vaccination. I have talked to quite a few others whose children have had pertussis, and while it was not fun or comfortable, it was not dangerous at all. Many educated parents and professionals believe the only true danger pertussis poses is to very young infants, whose respiratory systems may succumb to the spasms. CTS
In comparison, I can't find ANY reference to a fatal vaccination reaction, and an estimated encephalopathy rate as high as 0.00001% (10/ 1,000,000). If you can find some data along these lines... not supposition and hypothesis but actual studies.... please link them.- SignyM
Quote:For your children, because of specific contraindications, the risks may outweigh the benefits. But one of the things you're missing is that sometimes doing NOTHING is riskier than doing "something". I've run into this before: people on my neuro bbx who are so mesermized by the risk of medication that even tho their child is seizing 3Xday and gorked out from seizures all the time they're frozen by their own fears. -SignyM
Just because I don't care about society as much as I love my children does not mean I don't care about society at all. I prefer to find solutions for society that don't risk the health of my children, or anyone else's children.-CTS
Quote:AFA the women whose children were dx with autism after vaccination... I know of two people who claim that, one of which is fully documented. I have no doubt that there is some connection between the immune system and autism (The "risk" gene for autism- the MET gene- controls the gut brain, and the immune system.) Having autistic children in the family should IMHO preclude vaccination. Having said that, unvaccinated children SHOULD be treated as potential carriers in times of outbreak and quarantined.- SignyM
I offered the example of the mother with 2 autistic children (whose symptoms started shortly after vaccination) who doesn't want her third vaccinated. She would rather risk measles, mumps, and rubella (which come and go) than another case of autism (which is permanently disabling). From what I am hearing on this board, most folks here concur with authorities in denying her that choice.-CTS
Quote:
If there is a way to protect them without risking my children, I would gladly do so. But I am not going to pretend their lives are worth more than my children's lives. And that's assuming the pertussis vaccine prevents transmission, which is questionaNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Hi CTS,
I'm just going down the posts. This is from you:
"I wasn't aware that professional journals where scientists publish their research findings were part of the government."
Independent research is funded by the government. Without government funding the only research would be privately funded and thus liable to bias. However, there is another issue with government-funded research, and that is it takes place after a medicine is released to the public (if at all).
My question is really about the schizophrenia most USers have toward government regulation. It's viewed as a infringment on business 'freedom' (which people mistakenly equate with their own personal freedoms). And so the FDA is hampered and hamstrung by policy from doing a credible job.
To focus my question more - how would you feel about an empowered FDA that really could do independent research in the interests of protecting citizens?
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Dr Julie Gerberding runs Jewish Centers for Disease Creation Level 5 Bioweapons Lab
www.vaccinetruth.org
Quote:
Mad Scientists Resurrect Killer Flu
By Gina Kolata
The New York Times
OCTOBER 6, 2005
Two teams of federal and university scientists announced Wednesday that they have resurrected the 1918 influenza virus, the cause of one of history's most deadly epidemics, and have found that, unlike the viruses that caused more recent flu pandemics of 1957 and 1968, it was actually a bird flu that jumped directly to humans.
The work, being published in the journals Nature and Science, involved getting the complete genetic sequence of the 1918 virus, using techniques of molecular biology to synthesize it, and then using it to infect mice and human lung cells in a specially equipped secure lab at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta.
In a joint statement, Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, and Dr. Julie Gerberding, director of the Center for Disease Control and Prevention, said: "The new studies could have an immediate impact by helping scientist focus on detecting changes in the evolving H5N1 virus that might make widespread transmission among humans more likely."
www.iht.com/articles/2005/10/05/news/flu.php
1918 Influenza Pandemic Caused by Highly Conserved Viruses with Two Receptor-Binding Variants
*Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, Rockville, Maryland, USA; †National Institute for Medical Research, London, United Kingdom; ‡Queen Mary’s School of Medicine and Dentistry, London, United Kingdom; and §Retroscreen Virology, Ltd., London, United Kingdom
www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol9no10/02-0789.htm
"The art of warfare will be vastly different than it is today. 'Combat' likely will take place in new dimensions. Advanced forms of biological warfare that can 'target' specific genotypes may transform biological warfare from the realm of terror to a politically useful tool."
—Rabbi Dov Zakheim, Dick Cheney, "Jeb" Bush, Sir Donald "I Sold WMD Bioweapons To Saddam Hussein" Rumsfeld Knight of the British Empire, Jewish Project for a New American Century Corporation (PNAC), Rebuilding America's Defenses, 1999
www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf
TRUST ME - I'M A JEW?
"All vows, obligations, oaths, and anathemas, whether called onam, onas, or by any other name, which we may vow, or swear, or pledge, or whereby we may be bound, from this Day of Atonement until the next, we do repent. May they be deemed absolved, forgiven, annulled, and void, and made of no effect; they shall not bind us nor have power over us. The vows shall not be reckoned vows; the obligations shall not be obligatory; nor the oaths be oaths. And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of Israel."
-Jewish Kol Nidre prayer on Yom Kippur aka Day of Atonement
www.JewishEncyclopedia.com
Quote:
Centers for Disease Control Director Julie Gerberding has plan to 'save' us from 'bird flu'
by Dominus Noster
http://www.unconfirmedsources.com/nucleus/media/rsscache/20060522-juli
egerberdingwitch.JPG
Dr. Julie Gerberding pictured above.
Dr. Gerberding says, "Trust me"
WASHINGTON, D.C. -- The Centers for Disease Control Director Julie Gerberding has helped create a plan to save the world from the "bird flu." With a smile on her face, she talked about the possibility that the government may need to declare martial law, and people like herself would get more power and funding if the "bird flu" ever struck.
"How awesome that would be if there was an actual bird flu threat, since I would get so much more money and power, and I would feel important," said Dr. Julie Gerberding. "Right now, the idea is to scare everybody into trusting the government and big pharma as their saviors. Every time I open my mouth about the bird flu, my pharma stocks surge."
When one reporter asked Dr. Gerberding how she can mNOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Still going down the thread,
CTS,
Polio vaccines ARE effective and have eradicated polio in countries with mass vaccination. Even given your statistics, the FACT is that there has been no outbreaks of paralytic polio in the US since mass vaccination. What you have indicated to me is that you're willing to write off the numbers of people who were permanently paralyzed before the vaccine. "1977 - The National Health Interview Survey reports that there are 254,000 persons living in the United States who had been paralyzed by polio. Some estimates place the number at more than 600, 000." http://www.cloudnet.com/~edrbsass/poliotimeline.htm
I'm all for debate, but, really now. Do you not consider this a significant benefit? Or did this major fact escape your statistical 'analysis'?
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Still going down the thread,
CTS,
Polio vaccines ARE effective and have eradicated polio in countries with mass vaccination. Even given your statistics, the FACT is that there has been no outbreaks of paralytic polio in the US since mass vaccination. What you have indicated to me is that you're willing to write off the numbers of people who were permanently paralyzed before the vaccine. "1977 - The National Health Interview Survey reports that there are 254,000 persons living in the United States who had been paralyzed by polio. Some estimates place the number at more than 600, 000." http://www.cloudnet.com/~edrbsass/poliotimeline.htm
I'm all for debate, but, really now. Do you not consider this a significant benefit? Or did this major fact escape your statistical 'analysis'?
Polio was "cured" by redefining "polio" to censor all the new cases of polio caused by the "vaccines" with live polio. Same with all other diseases "cured" by "vaccines":
Quote:
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15 speakers, including 5 medical doctors, plus researchers, parents and a registered dog breeder reveal the true, well documented answers to: Was it vaccines that saved us? Do vaccines prevent or cause diseases? Can statistics be misleading? What poisons do vaccinations contain? What damage are vaccines causing? Are childhood diseases really "deadly"? Why does vaccination continue? What are our rights? Can damage be evaluated and countered? What is the true key to immunity? Presents orthodox medical research. Fully informs in just 90 mins. Nothing is safe from the vaccine invasion, not even our genes. They shot first, we asked questions later. Now we know...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8610554679207090010&q=vaccines
Select to view spoiler:
Fed woman: It's the Pax. The G-Paxilon Hydroclorate that we added to the air processors. It was supposed to calm the population, weed out aggression. Well, it works. The people here stopped fighting. And then they stopped everything else. They stopped going to work... they stopped breeding, talking, eating. There's 30-million people here, and they all just let themselves die.
(smashing down door)
(whine, wimper)
I have to be quick. About a tenth of a percent of... the population had the opposite reaction to the Pax. Their aggressor response increased beyond madness. They have become...
(smashing down door)
Well, they've killed most of us. And not just killed... they've done things.
Wash: Reavers. They made them.
Fed woman: I won't live to report this, but people have to know. We meant it for the best... to make people safer.
(Reavers growling)
God!
(Fed woman screaming)
(Reaver munching)
Reaver 1: Bill, does this taste like chicken to you?
Reaver 2: Ted, I think it takes like sheeple.
Reaver 3: Does this scalp make my butt look fat?
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"The dilemma is, do they have the right to question authority and have those doubts?"
See my original post.
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Frem,
Quote:HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Why is it that I suddenly feel trapped between a Klan lynch mob and a Panthers meeting ?
I'm actually QUITE interested in facts and so I would appreciate your specific input. I agree with you completely on some things. I DON'T trust the FDA as currently formed. I linked several New England Journal of Medicine articles which were quite explicit in what's wrong with the approval process and criteria. It's unconscionable. But I believe the answer is to demand more from a govenment that claims to represent us.
Quote:As to studies of MMR and autism, they do exist. Looking under google scholar I came across this: http://jama.highwire.org/cgi/content/abstract/285/9/1183
So, where's the independant, peer reviewed, proper scientific method study ?
Essentially no correlation was observed between the secular trend of early childhood MMR immunization rates in California and the secular trend in numbers of children with autism enrolled in California's regional service center system. For the 1980-1994 birth cohorts, a marked, sustained increase in autism case numbers was noted, from 44 cases per 100 000 live births in the 1980 cohort to 208 cases per 100 000 live births in the 1994 cohort (a 373% relative increase), but changes in early childhood MMR immunization coverage over the same time period were much smaller and of shorter duration. Immunization coverage by the age of 24 months increased from 72% to 82%, a relative increase of only 14%, over the same time period.
However, there are OTHER large studies involving hundreds of thousands of children not limited to the US, or even the western world. Similar studies have been done for thimerosal (for example, a Danish study of 467,450 children finding no link with autism http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/290/13/1763?AddInterest=
1053)
Quote:I did look through the site and didn't find the numbers you were referring to. What I found was that autism has skyrocketed without any letup. So if you could post a link to the specific data intended, I would appreciate it.
There also exists some evidence, referenced through the State of California DDS, of a rather sharp drop in Autism cases *after* Thimerosal was removed from common vaccines - no scientific study exists, but the numbers are there.
http://www.dds.ca.gov/autism/autism_main.cfm
Quote:In the interests of accuracy, I did want to point out that the product in question is NOT a vaccine, it's a medicine.
And that ever so "safe" flu vaccine, which everyone assured you was so safe.. ain't.
http://www.webmd.com/content/article/129/117515.htm
The other thing I wanted to point out is that mass vaccination is an effort in epidemiology, a branch of medicine you may not be familiar with. And that you seem to be demanding absolute guarantees, which don't exist anywhere in this life.
But in any case, I share your disdain for 'government in service of business'. If government really regulated the medical industry, it would have demanded the removal of thimerosal just on suspicion. It would be looking after the safety of medicines and vaccines before being released to the public, not after. It would be conducting major studies on who benefits from and who is hurt by mass vaccination.
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CTS:
I understand you're probably ignoring me, but if you are not what are your opinions on what I have said?
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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