Mandatory vaccinations vs. right to choose
POSTED BY: canttakesky
UPDATED: Thursday, December 7, 2006 07:56
VIEWED: 21145
PAGE 4 of 21
Quote:Fine, YOU pay for every single person who falls ill because they weren't vaccinated. I bet you run out of money first.
Fine, long as YOU pay for the lifelong care of kids who "suddenly" develop autism right after recieving the MMR vaccine.
Have the decency to do your own homework for once, and while yer at it, make real sure to compare autism occurance in vaccinated population versus non-vaccinated (the Amish, for example) and then come back and tell me there's no link.
Have the decency to do YOUR own homework and get YOUR facts straight for once and realise that vaccination has done a lot more good than harm, and then tell me you have the right to expose other people to disease and expect other people to clean up YOUR mess.
Oh and really, you think that bit of 'logic' is indicative of anything? Greater occurrence of Autism in the general population as compared to the Amish is just as likely to be genetic as vaccine related, probably more so. Maybe it's because they eat less processed foods, an assertion that holds as much validity as yours. Get an argument and some actual data, why should I have the 'decency' to do YOUR homework for YOU when you don't have the decency to do it yourself.
Quote:Quote the place in my post where I said "trust big pharma, they're great" (The previous excluded, obviously). Can ya? Can ya quote me? No that's right you can't quote me. I never said trust anyone, I said take responsibility for your own choices, and if your choices directly lead to an out brake, you can take responsibility for that. Obviously you find taking responsibility for the negative effects of your choices as insultingly abhorrent, judging by your reaction, maybe you'd like to make the choice, garner the positive, then have me clean up any mess for you. Sounds like the perfect situation, for you.
You want me to trust THESE frankensteins ?
Maybe you can explain why if you're unvaccinated and fall ill other people should pay for the consequences of your decision? Why should other people pay for the negative impacts of YOUR choice?
EDITED: To get my point across a little better.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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For people interested in exactly what's wrong with the FDA, click on the free articles below from the NEJM.
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/355/21/2169?query=TOC#R1
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/355/21/2171?query=TOC
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/355/21/2261?query=TOC
Those who come from countries with decent health-care systems, please don't laugh too loudly at the US mess. It's not polite.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Side note: These are also the jerks who are pushing meds for "syndromes" they cook up out of sheer imagination - just look at the advertisements... "restless leg syndrome", "overactive bladder syndrome" ?
-Frem
I find it amusing that you have stated that jerks cooked up "syndromes" out of their imagination.
For your information RLS or restless leg does, in fact, exist. And I didn't just dream it up. Please do some research before you make statements you can't back up.
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Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre
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"We don't fear the reaper"
FORSAKEN original
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CTS -
I'm curious about your basic response to regulation. You have the approach "just give me the facts and let me decide." In your world without government, who do you think will provide you with unbiased facts? The pharmaceutical companies?
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The Anarchist Periodical? 
Chaos Times NonUnion?
----
Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
FORSAKEN original
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
CTS -
I'm curious about your basic response to regulation. You have the approach "just give me the facts and let me decide." In your world without government, who do you think will provide you with unbiased facts? The pharmaceutical companies?
Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
The Anarchist Periodical?
Chaos Times NonUnion?
[rant] You guys are missing the point here entirely. Even with all the 'facts', doctor testimonials. et all, out there that everyone gobbles up like the God's honest truth don't matter. I don't care if you give me a flu vaccine that is 100% effective and garuntees I won't get sick after I get the shot, I still won't get it. And that is my choice. It's not up to the government, the hospital, the FDA, or a school to decide what is in OUR best interests. If a parent doesn't want their child, or an adult doesn't want themselves, to get a shot, that is their decision, and forcing it upon them isn't going to help anyone. Those of us that have been vaccinated will be safe from those that haven't IF they do somehow manage to get infected.
You degrading to immature shots on those that have the nerve to actually stand up and question the 'norm' that has become the American people eating the shit fed us by the Government and Big Pharm like it was candy is childish. They are as entitled to their opinion as you constantly make us aware you are. And going against the norm does not make one an Anarchist, FutureMrsFIllion, grow up.
That's the beauty of the human condition, we don't always agree, nor do we have to. This thread was created to post your opinion on the subject, not insult those that don't share yours. [/rant]
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Quote:I need to make an important clarification here.
Originally posted by rue:
So, I'm looking for the anti- side to provide some perspective. You are obviously tapping into assumptions and information the pro- side doesn't share. I'd really like to find out what you all are thinking.
Vaccine choice activists come in two general categories: anti-vaccination and pro-choice. Pro-choice activism (to which I subscribe) is not anti-vaccination. It simply says that vaccination is not a black-and-white issue and therefore should be subject to individual choice.
So if you are looking for anti-vaccination arguments, you're not going to get any from me. I will not tell someone not to vaccinate. I will only post information to show that vaccination is a complex, multifactorial issue that does not merit a one-size-fits-all policy.
Now you can go to anti-vaccination sites and pull up all sorts of unsubstantiated claims and use them to discredit all prochoice arguments. But I think that would be somewhat disingenuous. One group wants to convince you that vaccines are not worth risking, and the other group wants to demonstrate only enough reasonable doubt that will allow parents to make their own choices. Any failure to prove vaccines are the root of all evil doesn't mean the reasonable doubt doesn't exist.
Here are some prochoice websites:
http://www.nvic.org/
http://www.know-vaccines.org/
http://www.vaccinechoice.org/index.php/site/C4/
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
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To be without some of the things you want is an indispensable part of happiness.
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Quote:I wasn't aware that professional journals where scientists publish their research findings were part of the government.
Originally posted by rue:
I'm curious about your basic response to regulation. You have the approach "just give me the facts and let me decide." In your world without government, who do you think will provide you with unbiased facts? The pharmaceutical companies?
Do you think the government gives the public unbiased facts? (Edited to add: Just checked out your FDA links. Yeah, they are full of unbiased facts.)
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
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The government consists of a gang of men exactly like you and me. They have, taking one with another, no special talent for the business of government; they have only a talent for getting and holding office.
--H. L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
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"[rant] You guys are missing the point here entirely. Even with all the 'facts', doctor testimonials. et all, out there that everyone gobbles up like the God's honest truth don't matter. I don't care if you give me a flu vaccine that is 100% effective and garuntees I won't get sick after I get the shot, I still won't get it. And that is my choice. It's not up to the government, the hospital, the FDA, or a school to decide what is in OUR best interests. If a parent doesn't want their child, or an adult doesn't want themselves, to get a shot, that is their decision, and forcing it upon them isn't going to help anyone. Those of us that have been vaccinated will be safe from those that haven't IF they do somehow manage to get infected.
You degrading to immature shots on those that have the nerve to actually stand up and question the 'norm' that has become the American people eating the shit fed us by the Government and Big Pharm like it was candy is childish. They are as entitled to their opinion as you constantly make us aware you are. And going against the norm does not make one an Anarchist, FutureMrsFIllion, grow up.
That's the beauty of the human condition, we don't always agree, nor do we have to. This thread was created to post your opinion on the subject, not insult those that don't share yours."
Dude take a chill pill. It IS the business of everyone else if you choose NOT to vaccinate your children or yourself, get sick and then cost ME money by making MY health co-pays increase, or worse if a whole bunch or you get together and start an epidemic because you were too "educated" to get the vaccination.
As for growing up - you seriously need to take a deep breath and count to 10. You are allowed your opinion and I am allowed mine. I am also allowed to respond should I choose to do so. If you can't take a joke, stay off the boards. I was responding directly to the post above me and no one else.
----
Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
FORSAKEN original
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Quote:Doctors tow the party line. Their primary interest is not necessarily the health of your child, but their own financial and professional advancements. Exemptions approved by doctors is not giving parents choice--it is giving doctors power to decide the fate of children they are not raising.
Originally posted by rue:
And that's why there are such things as medical exemptions....If the doctor finds no medical exception, perhaps some sort of penalty could be imposed.
For example, one woman with two children who became autistic shortly after vaccination did not want to risk her 3rd child and wanted a medical exemption. But since medical authorities deny any possible link between vaccines and autism, they would not give her a medical exemption. Prochoice activists believe she should have that choice.
Quote:Researchers do the best correlational and controlled trial studies they can on vaccines, and then release the vaccine to the public. Then they follow up over the years and find out all sorts of surprising new things they hadn't known before. Like vaccines don't confer lifelong immunity as previously thought--people need booster shots. Or mothers who had been vaccinated for measles do not pass measles antibodies to their babies, like mothers who had contracted measles naturally. Or outbreaks can happen in a fully vaccinated population because all the vaccinated people were contracting the disease subclinically and spreading it about unknowingly. Or a perfectly healthy child with not even a cold can die 4 hours after her vaccination.
The Nuremburg Code is really a bogus argument.
When they release a product to the public without knowing the full consequences, the public is very much used as a guinea pig. This is not only true for vaccines, but most medical interventions.
Although it is an undisputed fact that a segment of the population WILL react badly to a vaccine, authorities still don't know WHO is likely to react poorly and who isn't (besides the very narrow, obvious category of the immunocompromised). And they are not researching these subsets of the population to find the answers. When they inject a vaccine into YOUR child, there is a chance that it is YOUR child who will suffer injury or death. Speaking of Russian Roulette, it is exactly like pointing a gun at your kid, albeit with a tremendously huge barrel. Most kids are safe, but every once in a while, some kid gets it.
Vaccination is very much human experimentation. When you don't know what is going to happen before you try an intervention, you are experimenting. The Nuremberg Code is entirely appropriate for application in this issue.
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
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If you're happy and you know it, clunk your chains.
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