How will our beliefs change in 500 years?

POSTED BY: Siri
UPDATED: Friday, November 24, 2006 17:15
VIEWED: 7644
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RUE

Friday, November 17, 2006 9:51 PM

SignyM

I'm sure HK has some terrific ideas. This is my take:

First of all, perhaps more adults should be like you rather than you learning to be more like some mythic adult.

Second, what difficulties are you talking abut? I don't perceive any. You seem emminently thoughtful, insightful, emotionally stable and intelligent.

Finally, MOST people, even as adults, relate to the world the way they learned as children. So they relate to authority figures the same way they related to their parents; to close peers as to sibilings; to 'the world' as their parents did etc. Maybe that means 'most people' don't grow up, but that is the usual condition.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Can't reply in any but the briefest form because the topic really deerves more thought than I've given it.

HK- One of the things that strikes me, in my old(er) age, is that while I was taught how to be a good child I was never taught how to become an effective adult. I know that sounds strange... but for all of my various achievements (such as they are) and experiences I sometimes feel as if I'm dealing with life with the emotional tools of a 10-year-old. And as I look around it seems to me that we should have some sort of mentoring program on how to be a whole adult human being. There must be a crying need for it because otherwise we wouldn't have so many "advice" shows and books. So maybe the first step in the paradigm change is to be able to build our emotional wisdom over time and not lose it with each generation.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

SIRI

Friday, November 17, 2006 10:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
[B One of the things that strikes me, in my old(er) age, is that while I was taught how to be a good child I was never taught how to become an effective adult. I know that sounds strange... but for all of my various achievements (such as they are) and experiences I sometimes feel as if I'm dealing with life with the emotional tools of a 10-year-old. And as I look around it seems to me that we should have some sort of mentoring program on how to be a whole adult human being. There must be a crying need for it because otherwise we wouldn't have so many "advice" shows and books. So maybe the first step in the paradigm change is to be able to build our emotional wisdom over time and not lose it with each generation. B]

It's interesting and relevant, I think, that the focus has shifted to our emotional nature and level of maturity. As someone who has spent years working with children, families and now adults with serious emotional problems, I continue to meet people who struggle with day-to-day existence, many by lack of education, limited employment opportunities, poverty and ignorance - not necessarily stupidity. I'm often amazed that they get by as well as they do.

I've noted several people quoted studies and research, which I read and consider, but find it, too, changes and I always like to go back and check the source, whether the study has or can be replicated, the numbers of people involved, etc. and who funded the study.

What I've discovered pesonally working in this field, is that 12-step programs can be helpful. Yes, they are psuedoscience but they are structured in a fundamental way so as to encourage personal responsibility, group support, and a focus on helping others. I'm not the religious type. While spirituality is a big piece of that program and some push religion, still, I think it has been extremely beneficial for the individual and for society as a step in our emotional maturity and evolution. My belief only.

As far as psychoanalysis - not sure if the reference is to the field of psychiatry in general, including people like me who are not MDs (psychiatrist) but are psyotherapists, as well as others, social workers, etc. That is quite a broad field. It isn't always as quantifiable as the "hard" sciences, that's for sure. Altho research and studies on the brain have produced data that is helpful in understanding how the affects of medication and the like.

When working with children who were having problems, I found I spent a lot of time trying to teach the parents how to help their kids. Providing love and discipline are not mututally exclusive. When I say discipline I am talking about teaching children responsibility and holding them accountable for their actions. Children learn from what they see and hear (overhear) not so much what they are told. So I also spent a lot of time helping the adults sort out their values and determining if what they were saying and what they were doing was the same thing. I don't mean punishment which isn't the same as discipline.

In this area, I think we need to work harder. By holding our children accountable, we say to them, "I believe you are smart enough to figure this out and learn from it. I will be here to back you up and help you but it is something you need to learn to do yourself."

Not sure how much this will matter in 500 years but so far, people who accept responsibility for their actions and learn from their mistakes, have always been more able to handle things and generally make better choices.

Siri

DREAMTROVE

Friday, November 17, 2006 11:01 PM

Zeph,

500 years is a lot of bio-engineering, cybertechnology and the like.

ZEPH

Friday, November 17, 2006 11:08 PM

dreamtrove--

You are correct in that, I was operating under the assumption that any evolutionary changes would be "natural."

Two points, though:

Firstly, if we signficantly bio-engineer or cyberize humanity, is it still humanity...?

Second point; that sort of thing worked out really well on Miranda...

http://www.myspace.com/captainzeph

HKCAVALIER

Saturday, November 18, 2006 3:39 AM

Oh. My. God. Zeph.

Those links, man. I'm sorry.

The first one, about Freud, okay, fine. Bash Freud. He was a plenty effed up dude. Most people were back then, you know?

And I'm sorry, maybe I could have saved myself some grief if I'd written "the mainstreaming of psychotherapy," but to my mind, the mainstreaming of psychoanalysis is psychotherapy.

I think one of the reasons human beings have come so late to a systematic approach to healing the human psyche is because people are in general so psychically troubled. Our psyches are damn fragile, evolutionarily speaking, brand new and barely tested. Major psychological disturbances, or even lesser disturbances which are nonetheless epidemic in a culture, are definitively unself-diagnosible, and at times barely even perceptible. You know, when everyone in a culture beats their children, who's to say it's wrong? Without contrary examples, what do you compare it to? In such a cultural context, much of what we know today of mental health would be every bit as unfalsifiable and untestable as anything John Edwards served up on cable tv.

Here's a thing: early in his career, Freud encountered what he perceived as an epidemic of incest among his patients. He wrote of his disturbing findings to a mentor of his. His mentor very kindly but firmly informed Freud that if he were to present his findings to the psychological community at large his career would be over. The world was not ready to consider such things. Right or wrong, Freud saw validity in his mentor's councel and formulated the infamous "Oedipal Complex" as a way of bringing forward his ideas about healing from incestual trauma without offending the status quo. Extremely damn clever of him, but ultimately very misleading, as your link suggests.

Fortunately, psychotherapy has progressed since Freud's time, dramatically, even since 1948 (the most recent example of psychoanalytical pseudoscience referenced in your link). I will grant that psychotherapy is a young science and as such, its adherents have saught to apply it as a panacea to any and all ills of the mind. These misapplications have been abandoned.

It's telling to me that the site you linked to endorses Elizabeth Loftus's pseudoscientific work on so-called "false memory." Basically, because she was able to confuse subjects into vague acceptance of fabricated "memory," she discounted the entire phenomenon of repressed memory. That's quite a leap and, I think, profoundly intellectually dishonest. I think if you read any of her writing, her contempt for recovered memory and her desire to "make it all go away" are transparent.

Actual repressed memories, as I have personally experienced them (my axe to grind) are not remotely vague or insubstancial or subject to theraputic manipulation. They're stark, emotionally overwhelming and once recovered, unforgetable. They can be very confusing, particularly the eariest ones, but when you experience them, they're anything but fake.

Though I was seeing a therapist once a week at the time of recovering several such memories, they were usually brought on by events in my life apart from therapy and mostly happened outside my therapist's office. This all took place in the early 90's, so my therapist was well aware that he could lose his license if he were accused of implanting memories and took great pains to deal with my recollections objectively, almost to the point of disuading me from them. But illusions fade and the truth sticks around.

The trouble with Loftus' made up "false memory syndrome" (no such syndrome is acknowledged by medical science) is that it serves only to protect predators. When the uncredited essayist from your link writes:

Quote:
There is little question that if children are treated cruelly throughout childhood, their lives as adults will be profoundly influenced by such treatment. It is a big conceptual leap from this fact to the notion that all sexual experiences in childho

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HKCAVALIER

Saturday, November 18, 2006 4:47 AM

Hey Signy ,

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
HK- One of the things that strikes me, in my old(er) age, is that while I was taught how to be a good child I was never taught how to become an effective adult. I know that sounds strange... but for all of my various achievements (such as they are) and experiences I sometimes feel as if I'm dealing with life with the emotional tools of a 10-year-old.

Not strange at all from where I sit. Off the top of my head, it occurs to me that part of the trouble is the lack of elders in our communities, our lack of respect for age and wisdom as a culture. We have adults to parent the kids, but no elders to properly parent the adults. Old people are treated like children, sent on perminent vacation, their knowledge of our techologically fetishized culture obsolete.

We don't honor wisdom, we honor power. We honor money. More power and money can be acquired by a pair of teen age twins than you or I will likely see in our entire lives. Does that seem right to you?

Quote:
And as I look around it seems to me that we should have some sort of mentoring program on how to be a whole adult human being.

Psychotherapy and 12 steps have served exactly that purpose in my life. Robert Bly once said, "A young man who is not being admired by an older man is being hurt." Of course, we're generally so wounded in our sexualities in this culture that we can't read that sentense without chanelling Beavis and Butthead, but I think Bly is right.

Quote:
There must be a crying need for it because otherwise we wouldn't have so many "advice" shows and books. So maybe the first step in the paradigm change is to be able to build our emotional wisdom over time and not lose it with each generation.

I think what you're talking about is the establishment of new traditions. So many of the old traditional systems simply don't work for modern people, don't make sense in light of what we now know about the world and our natures. 500 years is a good time span to establish traditions. The last century has been a time of great upheaval in the realm of tradition. Perhaps the next 500 will see the establishment of new, sane, and reasonable traditions to take the place of the old, dogmatic and superstitious ones.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

ZEPH

Saturday, November 18, 2006 4:48 AM

HK--

I just have to say, I spent a good thirty minutes or so typing up a detailed response -- then scrapped it.

We simply disagree on many subject at such a fundamental level that I simply see no way to continue the discussion on these particular points that won't end up being acrimonious.

That being said, it is my opinion that the best thing to do here is to drop the entire discussion and agree to disagree. I've slogged through entirely too many threads on this board that have simply devolved into arguments to have any desire to add to them.

Fair enough?

http://www.myspace.com/captainzeph

RUE

Saturday, November 18, 2006 4:58 AM

Hi HK,

I realize the post wans't directed to me but I liked this: "Perhaps the next 500 will see the establishment of new, sane, and reasonable traditions to take the place of the old, dogmatic and superstitious ones."

That would be wonderful.

HKCAVALIER

Saturday, November 18, 2006 5:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeph:
Fair enough?

Sure, Zeph. Reading those links of yours was a trip down memory lane for me, and not a pleasant one. I kinda get the feeling we both have had this argument many times over.

I am still curious to hear if you have any personal experience with psychotherapy or 12 steps to draw on here or if your objections are more a matter of principle. Arguing principles can get very old very fast, but hearing another person's experiences--particularly those which differ from mine--is always instructive.

Anyway, thanks for remaining cordial, I'm happy to drop the discussion if you like.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

RABBIT2

Saturday, November 18, 2006 10:37 AM

Quote:
"Ever heard of the Crusades?"
Ever heard of Jihad?

The Crusades were what gave the muslims the original idea.

In 500 years. The human race as we understand it will be extinct and our local part of the universe will be populated by von Neuman style replicator machines. Who probably spend a lot of time argueing about religion.

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Flight Instructor: Son, know what the first rule of flying is?
Me: Don`t crash?

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