Look, I know it's been overdone - but abortion - yay or nay?
POSTED BY: FLF
UPDATED: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 13:13
VIEWED: 24147
PAGE 8 of 26
Quote:It’s human whether it is fully developed or not. Fully developed it becomes a human adult. Somewhere in between, it is a human child.
Originally posted by rue:
You require it to be fully developed to be human, whether a fetus or a child.
Essentially, you can't show me a human fetus that, upon reaching its final complete stage of development, is not a human adult. Certainly, there are some fetuses that won’t make it that far, but all those that do will be a human adult. That's really pretty widely accepted, not hard stuff. Very few people, if any, actually believe that a human fetus will be something other then a human adult upon reaching final stage of development, and as far as I know on one can show otherwise. But if you can I’m all ears, but aside from that, I don’t think this line of discussion is going anywhere.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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That makes every woman who ovulates without getting pregnant a murderess. Of course, not on the scale of a guy who, uhh, uhhmm, dances with himself.
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I guess that depends on what is meant by murder and whether a human egg qualifies as human. Some would agree with you.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:IMHO it has the potential to BECOME human. But just having the "potential" - a set of cells that are not fully differentiated- does not make it a human. Let me give you an example. As I understand it the dividing cells are "capable" of becoming both a fetus AND the placenta. Normally, they do both. But what happens when only a placenta develops? Is that "human"? What happens when a fetus develops w/o any recognizable features? Or w/o a head or a brain? Or, looking at the genetic aspect (as opposed to developmental aspects) what happens with trisomy, or other serious genetic errors?
In all fairness, and I am saying this as a pro-choice person, it's wrong not to consider a fetus "human".
I don't see a bright line between "human" and "not human". What I see is a spectrum.
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Precisely, because they're denying the Human nature of the egg and preventing it from reaching adulthood. It's a potential human, therefore it IS human.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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"Show me a fully developed human fetus that is not a human ..." If to be fully developed means to be human, what about the other half of the logic?
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I actually understand what you're trying to say. The problem is you have to skate around your assumptions and incomplete logic every time you get near the topic. I'm just trying to point those out. Because once you address issues, your illusions fall apart.
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Finn, I'd like a clarification on which is the irresponsible activity: having sex for pleasure or having sex without contraception?
* edited to add: I should probably include the relevant exchange.
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
People are going to have sex, it's a fact. It's a human urge that has never been possible to repress in the entirety of history. You will never be able to tell people to stop having sex, even when they aren't ready to have children. It's sad but true.
Some people are going to take illicit drugs too. That doesn’t really make it okay does it? Irresponsible behavior is irresponsible, whether people are going to do it or not. I don’t think we should whitewash it.
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Quote:Well, obviously having sex for pleasure is a sin, and you fornicating pleasure having heathens are all going to burn in hell!!!!!!
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
Finn, I'd like a clarification on which is the irresponsible activity: having sex for pleasure or having sex without contraception?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Well, obviously having sex for pleasure is a sin, and you fornicating pleasure having heathens are all going to burn in hell!!!!!!
Okay, I'm assuming that was tongue in cheek. The reason why I asked is because there is an easy remedy if you consider having sex without using contraception to be irresponsible behavior. That remedy is to make sure that every American is educated in effective methods of birth control starting around the onset of adolescence and that every American has access to the most effective methods of birth control no matter their socio-economic position. Unfortunately, millions of Americans are not taught about birth control. And access to some of the most effective methods of birth control is limited in many regions of the country.
If you want to decrease the number of abortions, teach science based sex education. Similarly with access to birth control.
Unfortunately, there are far too many Americans who are more concerned that some people are having sex for pleasure and not paying the damn price of getting pregnant.
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I shoulda just not posted. That's what happens in the intervening hours between "type" and "post".
So let me add a "potentially" (ahem!) more relevant comments:
Just because all humans were fetuses doesn't mean all fetuses are human. It'a a logical fallacy.
Another comment- Finn, you'll defend to the death (so to speak) the rights of a fetus, and yet you've said that killing innocent civilians is a justifiable part of war. It seems to me that you are not so much "pro-life" as simply not willing to give up YOUR concepts and GOVERNMENT (and maybe even corporate) life and death perogatives.
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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