Look, I know it's been overdone - but abortion - yay or nay?
POSTED BY: FLF
UPDATED: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 13:13
VIEWED: 24147
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Quote:I said a collection of cells is definatly not Human. No 7-weeks about it, it's still a collection of cells at that stage, and in fact could still be aborted naturally because it's not until then that the embryo starts releasing chemicals that stop the menstrual cycle.
Originally posted by Eric:
Well okay, but how about 9 weeks? Or 7? Point is, I think there may not be a cut off. The progression from 'collection of cells' to sentient being may be too gradual to define. Depends on how you define sentience. Is a 30-week fetus self-aware?
BTW you still haven't answered my question, I don't know is not a valid responce, it either is different because X, or it is not. I don't know is "I don't want it to be but can't think why".
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Originally posted by sahara:
Exactly, "subject to personal belief". I believe that it's between a woman and her doctor and her conscience.
If you don't want an abortion, or think it's morally wrong, then don't have one.
/B]
Again, that argument doesn't work
on someone who believes abortion is murder. It always comes back to whether the fetus is a sentient human entitled to life. For instance, I've read of some ancient peoples who believed that a child was not imbued with a soul until given a name. So would someone with such a belief be justified in killing their newborn so long as it had no name?
This is such a horrid issue because it will never be resolved...
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"For instance, I've read of some ancient peoples who believed that a child was not imbued with a soul until given a name."
If I recall correctly the Japanese held that belief until recently. The time limit was three days, after which it was given a name and introduced into society. What I read was that since perinatal mortality was so high, birth itself wasn't considered the final goal post, just one event on the way to personhood and life.
But in fact, in Japan, while abortion is legal, birth control is not. As I've read, that is due to religious belief being written into law (which the US should be trying to avoid.) If you are conceived and then aborted, you must have earned some really bad karma. But to not be conceived blocks the cycle of reincarnation.
Also, I'm curious what you think of using brain activity to find the beginning of an individual life the same way it's used to find the end.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Also, I'm curious what you think of using brain activity to find the beginning of an individual life the same way it's used to find the end.
That's an interesting point. I believe Terri Schiavo was already dead long before they pulled the plug, so maybe that could be a criterion...
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I said a collection of cells is definatly not Human. No 7-weeks about it, it's still a collection of cells at that stage, and in fact could still be aborted naturally because it's not until then that the embryo starts releasing chemicals that stop the menstrual cycle.
BTW you still haven't answered my question, I don't know is not a valid responce, it either is different because X, or it is not. I don't know is "I don't want it to be but can't think why".
Do I think there is much difference between zygote and culture? No, except for the potential for personhood unless killed. Which is a sticking point for a lot of people, but I'm not going to argue it. Do I think a zygote is a human? No. But the point is if you look for a cut off point where abortion goes from 'okay' to 'not okay'(say, from 8 weeks to the 4 months where brain activity starts (vide supra)), you're still going to get a multitude of answers.
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Quote:This is a common argument, but I don’t know that it is a particularly strong one. Essentially the argument boils down to responsibility. Yes, it is true that an unexpected pregnancy can result in considerable changes in a woman’s and often a man’s life, and sometimes these changes are not positive ones, but perhaps often these individuals shouldn’t have been having unprotected sex (or sex at all) if they weren’t prepared for this eventuality? Basically, this argument implies that we are pushing the parent’s responsibility off on to an unborn child.
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I don't think it's that people do not consider the unborn life as significant. It's more that they assign an equal or greater importance to the effects of pregnancy and birth on the mother who is essentially the host to this unborn life, which comes with pain and discomfort and risks to physical well-being even under the best of circumstances (i.e. a wanted, uncomplicated pregnancy).
Quote:In fact, the majority of abortions preformed in the United States are essentially birth control. Very few of these abortions are actually done for health reasons or reasons like incest and rape. Most of them are done because the mother/father simply doesn’t want a child at that time, which is something that probably could have been dealt with in another way.
Originally posted by TakeMeFlying:
Is there really a large population of girls and women out there using abortion as birth control???
Quote:I disagree. I think the lack of moderate arguments in this debate is much of the problem. In this kind of environment, the pro-choice argument sometimes embraces what might amount to callous disregard for human life, simply because they are unwilling to accept any argument that criticizes abortion or how it’s used. The epitome of this is the objectification of a human fetus as a “blob of cells,” or as “not human.” First of all the argument is trivial, all humans are just ‘blobs of cells.’ The human fetus is as human as an adult human. There is no more question about whether a human fetus will potentially develop into a human child, then whether a human child will potentially develop into a human adult. So the issue cannot be whether it is human or not, but at what point in the development of a human being does that human life become important. Attempting to categorize a human fetus as “not human” simply because it is underdeveloped raises the question of whether a human child is human since it is likewise underdeveloped. So this “black and white thing,” as you say, goes in some terrifying directions that I don’t ever want to have to seriously debate.
Originally posted by FellowTraveler:
I do not understand any moderate position on this issue. To my mind, a fetus is either an innocent life or is not. There is no middle ground or halfway. It's a black and white thing. Yes or no.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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If you ask whether god created all the species or if there was some mechanism of evolution you get a multitude of answers. sometimes people are wrong, doesn't mean sane people should worry to much about it.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:Lets change the wording to something a little less deceptive eh finn.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
There is no more question about whether a human fetus will potentially develop into a human child, then whether a human child will potentially develop into a human adult.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Eric,
"you're still going to get a multitude of answers"
Such was the case with death, until the medical and legal community settled on 'brain death'.
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There's nothing deceptive about my wording. It's a statement of fact.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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