Look, I know it's been overdone - but abortion - yay or nay?
POSTED BY: FLF
UPDATED: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 13:13
VIEWED: 24147
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Not an ideal choice, but sometimes necessary.
What people do is load up the fetus with all of their hopes and dreams until it becomes an idealized vision. They're not seeing the fetus as it is but as they would LIKE it to be: an angelic, quiet, thumb-sucking, pretty bundle of joy, all tucked up and happy with oodles and oodles of potential. But once it's born, especially if it's disabled or born to a poor black or brown mother it becomes just another squalling welfare-sucking gangbanger wannabe, not worth WIC or medical care or funds for education. I find great irony, and truth, in the statement "For Republicans life begins at conception and ends at birth."
The tragedy isn't that a human is killed- hell, we sacrifice humans every day by the hundreds of thousands for "profit" or "power", and IMHO a fetus is not even a "human". The tragedy is that we have such a system that causes women to kill their dreams and hopes.
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
The tragedy isn't that a human is killed- hell, we sacrifice humans every day by the hundreds of thousands for "profit" or "power", and IMHO a fetus is not even a "human". The tragedy is that we have such a system that causes women to kill their dreams and hopes.
In all fairness, and I am saying this as a pro-choice person, it's wrong not to consider a fetus "human".
It is human. A human being at an early stage in its development. To deny that is dishonesty and just as hypocritical as the people who like to pretend all aborting women are using the procedure like a morning-after pill.
Nor do I think that the majority of woman choose abortion against their inclination to actually have the child. Generally, women choose their dreams and hopes and sacrifice the child-in-the-making, because they aren't compatible.
Be their dreams and hopes the idea of finishing college (or highschool) or not sinking into poverty or having a fulfilling career - or not having to carry a child to term that was conceived without consent, or not having to raise a child with severe disabilities, or not having to go through nine months of pregnancy and the process of birth and then the pain of giving away a child for the sake of those dreams.
It's a wide spectrum of reasons, most of them not actually selfless, but still of very real impact and importance to the woman making the choice and pretty much her only.
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Is there really a large population of girls and women out there using abortion as birth control??? It is a medical procedure that is costly, uncomfortable at best, and potentially dangerous. It isn't something you can do every other week, like a manicure or something! That isn't a valid argument.
As far as choice is concerned, well, let's see - do I want the government (or anyone else for that matter) to treat me like a child and decided for me what is a very very personal choice? Or do I rather consider myself educated, intelligent, and sensible enough to make that decision myself?
I'd just as soon keep the White House, the Senate and the Church out of my womb, thanks, there just isn't enough room for all that! (even after carrying twins 
)
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Abortions will happen regardless. You can be pro choice or pro backstreet abortion that leaves most women that have them sterile or dead or abandoning the child after birth, because those are the real choices.
Quote:I cut my finger earlier, how many miniture humans died there I wonder? A collection of Cells isn't a human, it has potential perhaps, but still not a Human.
In all fairness, and I am saying this as a pro-choice person, it's wrong not to consider a fetus "human".
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Well, being a pinko, I believe it's between the (potential) parents, their doctor, and their God. If there is a God and abortion is wrong, they will be judged accordingly.
However, one of the points Finn was making is my problem with this debate as well:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Almost everyone believes that there are conditions under which abortion is necessary; even staunch abortion critics will usually conceded that such conditions exist...
I do not understand any moderate position on this issue. To my mind, a fetus is either an innocent life or is not. There is no middle ground or halfway. It's a black and white thing. Yes or no.
If it is not a human life, then abortion is acceptable in all circumstances and should be available on demand, right?
If it is a human life, then it is never acceptable. It is then murder, agreed?
So, following this logic (flawed as it may be), how can the moderates pick out specific times when it is okay and times when it is not?
The most egregious example I can think of is when I hear social conservatives pledge to outlaw abortion, except in cases of rape, or incest. Why? If it's an innocent life, the method of its conception does not change that. A child born of rape or incest is just as innocent as a child born of love. Sin is not sexually transmitted, nor is it passed down from mother to child (maybe with Catholics).
To me, it's all or nothing. Right or wrong. I don't know which, but it can't be both.
As a side note, I think it's important to realize that making abortion illegal will only stop the poor from having abortions. The rich will still be capable of hoping on a plane and flying to another country to recieve any medical procedure they wish. Also, legalized abortion has had a direct correlation to the drop in crime in the US (according to "Freakonomics", Levitt & Dubner). Fewer poor babies means fewer poor adults, which means fewer crimes. I think some conservative radio guy gots' himself in hot water for pointing this out about a year ago...
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Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
There are many valid reasons to have the choice available. If you think it's wrong, don't have one.
I agree with PR...
King of the Mythical Land that is Iowa
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The problem is that no one can answer the question 'when does life begin?' I can't accept that it begins at birth, since there's no real difference between a baby thirty seconds before it's born and thirty seconds after. So then where's the cut off? I don't know. But if I don't know, neither does anyone else, because it may be an unanswerable question. So for people who believe an unborn child is alive, the whole 'my body my choice' argument is irrelevant because it requires a basic assumption that they reject and that can't be proven. And the attitude of 'if you don't support it, don't have one' is similarly meaningless to someone who considers abortion murder. It's like saying 'well, I don't believe in murder, but I wouldn't oppose someone else doing it.' Which is of course ludicrous.
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Quote:It's unknowable because you don't?
Originally posted by Eric:
I don't know. But if I don't know, neither does anyone else,
One cell in my body has all my DNA. What's the difference between a culture of cells from my body and a zygote?
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:Quote:
In all fairness, and I am saying this as a pro-choice person, it's wrong not to consider a fetus "human".
I cut my finger earlier, how many miniture humans died there I wonder? A collection of Cells isn't a human, it has potential perhaps, but still not a Human.
Oh, come on.
I'm not using this fact as an argument to cut down on choice, so don't treat me like a brainless enemy.
A fetus is not NOT human. And without outside interference, it would continue to develop into a baby, which will be born and then grow into a child and a teen and an adult and an old geezer and then die.
It's a fact, not a manipulative lie to make women feel guilty.
I still don't consider it wrong to interfere and end that life, as long as it is dependent upon the woman's body for survival.
That's the real argument for me. What the continuation of life depends on, and whom, and if that responsibility can be transfered.
Death penalty, euthanasia, organ transplantation and abortion all fall into that spectrum for me. The measure of how sacrosanct you consider an individual's body - and what level of interference society should be allowed to engage in, in terms of control of responsibility.
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:Quote:It's unknowable because you don't?
Originally posted by Eric:
I don't know. But if I don't know, neither does anyone else,
One cell in my body has all my DNA. What's the difference between a culture of cells from my body and a zygote?
Well it's easy to take extreme examples. Answer the question. When's the cutoff for not alive/alive? First trimester? Second? Birth? Cutting of the cord? Drawing of first breath? What's the basis for the answer? It's unknowable because it's subject to personal belief.
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