BBC bias
POSTED BY: kaneman
UPDATED: Saturday, November 4, 2006 05:17
VIEWED: 5882
PAGE 7 of 7
Quote:No I honestly think that it comes from a deep psychological need of yours to blame 'the otherside' for things you don't like and attribute things you do like to the label you like and you rationalise that. For you it seems your rationalisations are undeniable, well thoughtout and compelling. For me, and it would seem others since I am far from the only person to come to this conclusion, they are sketchy at best.
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Citizen,
Argh.
Okay. Now seriously
Why is Bush in any way a leftist?
I've said it only about a hundred times, and you keep mischaracterizing it in the most simple minded way possible. Which, quite frankly, is dishonest. You know my position, and yet you insist on this ruse to paint it as something else because that other thing is easier to attack.
Quote:They left the left and went to the right...
Bush's backers are the neocons, people born of the political left. Disown them as you are free to do. But don't deny us on the right the right to disown them as well.
So if they did things you'd like I'm sure you'd say they left their misguided leftist routes behind and joined the right.
Quote:Fascism was rightist, I know you don't agree, but it's you against pretty much everyone else there. I've heard your rationalisations as for why and it's a whole long list of "this is exclusivly left because I say so, and it's part of fascism so fascism must be leftist", see above.
A list of Bush's leftist accomplishments:
1. Wars to spread freedom, a favorite clinton thing also, what i call social militarism, enforcing social reforms through military action, a classic leftist tactic. Not "liberal" in any libertarian individualist sense, but leftists is a commie fascists sense.
Quote:Rightwing governments do this too.
2. Big big big govt. spend spend spend
Quote:Yep national healthcare system is leftist, and when done properly its cheaper and gets far better results than private only.
3. A national healthcare plan in the form of the perscription drug benefit plan., big spending.
Quote:Isn't leftist, in fact centralised control was invented by the right, monarchies are just this and they are right-wing.
4. centralized control, such as the dept of homeland security.
Quote:[[]sarcasm[]]Yes American buisness has done terribly under Bush.[[]/sarcasm[]]
5. lack of support for american business initatives in favor of large govt. employment projects
Quote:So? The Democrates, by international standards are pretty much rightwing anyway. They're certainly right of our left wing. They're left of the tories but not by much.
A democrat could *run* on this, and a clinton and kerry have run on things not too different from it. It's not what Bush ran on. Bush said back in 2000 he was going to set aside 60 billion dollars to distribute among the poor. He said a lot of stuff, such as he wouldn't go to war. He pledged to support small business and states rights. He said he was a christian. In retrospect, I think he was lying his ass off.
Now I don't understand American politics that closely but are you saying that the left doesn't support state rights?
Would that make Lincoln and the Republican party (at the time) Left wing?
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Citizen,
I don't need to bow to your hooey psychological analysis of me. Essentially, you're just a kid, and though a reasonably bright one, not a genius. You need to talk less and listen more. You spend a lot of time and effort telling other people what's goign on with them, which really you don't know.
I have no psychological "need" to blame someone. I say these things for two reasons:
1. because they're true.
2. because I want the left to wake up and join us on the right against the evil thing.
Instead, what you guys are doing is supporting the evil thing whenever it stands up and says "we are liberals" which it does about half the time.
You need to be able to see the evil potential of a clinton govt. rather than just blame conservatives for this disaster. This disaster was a disaster long before bush came into office, and without change, it's going to be that way long after he leaves.
Next,
The so-called neocons never "left the left" they are mostly still democrats. They got some republicans with them, and some of their own became republicans. They are now a bipartisan group. They did not "move from left to right"
Quote:
Fascism was rightist, I know you don't agree, but it's you against pretty much everyone else there.
This is probably the dumbest thing you've ever posted. And you keep posting it.
The fascists ran for govt. on the left-wing ticket. This is a historical fact. Fascists were a breed of socialist. This is also a historical fact. Fascists favored big govt, social programs, heavy govt. regulations and opposed a free market and individual rights. This is also a historical fact.
There's nothing in here that's my opinion. I don't spend a lot of time calling the left Nazi, but the Nazis *were* the left of their time. The junkers were the conservative ticket in germany, and were perfectly in line with the old GOP or the Tories.
There's no grey area here, history is pretty cut and dried.
Quote:Quote:Rightwing governments do this too.
Big big big govt. spend spend spend
It's not a conservative value. Bush does it.
Quote:
[sarcasm]Yes American buisness has done terribly under Bush.[/sarcasm]
Your brain isn't even connected to your fingers, is it?
btw, the left laughs at states rights openly and frequently in america, but they do so less now that Bush has trampled them. Five years ago it was still a running joke among democrats. supporters of states rights were viewed as supporters of slavery.
Lincoln was an ass. He's been written into history as a hero, but he wasn't. Republicans were trying very hard to end slavery, which was not a state's right, but they were trying to do so without killing a million people.
If you notice I back reference John Quincy Adams as the first 'republican' which I do basically because I think Lincoln was an ass. Sure, he succeeded, but that's like saying that the nukes succeeded in stopping the japanese or the soviets stopped germany. In an all-machiavellian world, sure.
Quote:
monarchies are just this and they are right-wing.
whatever. you know that that 18th century left-right dichotomy has no relation to this one. our system not an evolution of that system, it replaced it.
Central control has always been a left value. they openly support the idea almost univerally. the only exception might be the libdems, but in america, we call the libdems "a right wing party" or as my brother put it "england is a place where a conservative republican is called a liberal democrat"
I admit that american democrats are pathetic liberals on an international scale. But even so, the american green party is a liberal party. we have some socialist parties here also, that are self-defined left wing. we have the progressives, who don't have a party yet, but are basically left wing and are probably the strongest 'real liberal' movement in america
As for the GOP and was it once a liberal party, that's a subject of a much longer debate. It really depends on your use of the world 'liberal
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Righteous,
I think this has been debated down to the dotted i's on this forum already.
part of what we are saying is the same thing:
corporatism is bad.
it's bad for business and it's bad for govt.
GE is local to me and we here little bad about it, but i'd be surprised if there was much bad to hear. people are angry with them for outsourcing.
Quote:
What about that perspective doesn't seem reasonable to you?
Most of it. It's not worth it. It's not worth it from a finanical perspective. It costs far more to invade iraq than it would ever be worth. If they were just about corruption, they'd just rob the till, which sure, they do, but why do anything else? There's a lot of this going on, but you need to follow the money. Jeb Bush embezzled a billion dollars in a medicare fraud, only to turn around and spend it supporting international terrorists in south america. These guys are agenda driven, the stealing of the money is only a means to an end.
the corporate guys here *are* the govt. guys. They're not some hoodlums waiting behind the team, they are the same people. All part of the team, it's one big conspiracy, or a lot of little ones.
Sure, there are some corporate crooks steal billions, but that's the small problem. If I thought the world was the way you paint it, I'd think we had a problem, but no where near the size of the problem I think we actually have.
Quote:
Couldn't it be possible our woes are not the result of an ideology that emulates communism,
It could be, but isn't. I'm pretty sure of myself here. I didn't just make up a theory that this is what's going on, I tracked these people back historically and read what they wrote. Essentially, for the last 30 years, everyone in this set has been blabbing "we're going to take over the world, here's why and here's how" it's not like it's some big mystery, they posted it all over the planet.
Quote:
allowing the free market to reach its logical conclusion of a handful of megacompanies with their grips on government and our news sources,
This is a logical fallacy. The free market strives to emulate evolution, evolution tends toward balance, not the extreme of single species monopoly.
The reason for this is very simple. Evolution isn't just about will, it's about supply and demand. The currency is protein, and as one life form gets a majority of it, it becomes the principle target food source.
Eating monopolies would be the natural reaction. If microsoft owned 90% of everything, companies would come up to provide services for microsoft, it's employees, to compete with microsoft, to steal its best employees even to sabotage it, until eventually, microsoft was no long the dominant institution.
Sure, economics isn't the natual order, it only tries to emulate it, which is why you make rules. But even as is, i'm confident that the big fish will be eaten by the little fish.
Quote:
and a genuine monetary incentive to push globalization, deregulation, war for resources and profiteering, the obfuscation of global warming....yada, yada yada.
I just don't think this is what's going on, and I feel as if I've really really dug.
The oil sickness is much worse than just corporate greed. These loons actually think they can own the entire world's oil supply, and then hold the world hostage, and they are panicking because they're terribly afraid oil will be replaced. There's a lot of money in oil, sure, but not *that* much.
The war in Iraq has cost us in total related expenses about $2T. of that, maybe $120B in oil has come out, and another $100B in contract fraud. Add the Halliburton windfall, and you have about $1/4T. So that's about 1/8 fat in this operation.
If you were in just to rob the public till and do nothing else, you'd think of something better. It's easy. Just think about it.
Project rebuild america:
We are going to rebuild the inner cities and the infastructure of America, roads and trains everywhere, inner city firehouses, police stations, real school buildings and universit
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Quote:I don't need to bow to your bullshit brow beating of me.
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Citizen,
I don't need to bow to your hooey psychological analysis of me. Essentially, you're just a kid, and though a reasonably bright one, not a genius. You need to talk less and listen more. You spend a lot of time and effort telling other people what's goign on with them, which really you don't know.
Uhuh, maybe I'm just a stupid punk kid or something, I defiantly won't truly understand the reasoning behind what you've written that eloquently proves how it's their fault.
Well I knew you'd go here next, for someone who doesn't really know what you're all about I sure did guess your next bit of BS pretty well.
You know you tell me I need to listen more, it's about time you did. You bring very little to discussion, you turn up, tell everyone socialists did it, Liberals are misguided and that the Conservatives will save the universe from the lefty scourge, then if asked for evidence of anything you say you reply "It's true unbiased fact, I thought everyone knew it" and if pressed "I don't have time, look for evidence to back up my statements yourself". Then if anyone questions you you puff yourself up and tell them they're a punk ass kid who doesn't know what they're talking about. Well fella you aint that big and you aint that scary, I've had bigger brighter more knowledgeable people than you try to brow beat me with that kind of playground bullshit and it won't work. Perhaps you could try telling me "my dads bigger than your dad" next.
Actually I'll go down a bit:
2. because I want the left to wake up and join us on the right against the evil thing.
Like I said, Dreamtroves thought filter:
Left=Evil
Right=Good
Ergo if something is Evil it is leftist, if something is good it is rightist.
You accuse me of always seeing evil coming from the right, well frankly I'm getting sick and tired of listening to your latest delusion. You see the evil ALWAYS coming from the left, the above statement eloquently confirms that. I think 'evil' comes from both sides, I think both the left and right need to move together because both, if given absolute power will be absolutely corrupted. You know this is my position, I've flat out told you it is several times and we actually discussed my reasoning in a previous thread. You post that I think "all the evil comes from the right" when you should know damn well that's not true leads to two possible conclusions. Either you're flat out lying in a transparent attempt to discredit me as a right hating lefty loony, or you can't remember what was said five minutes ago. The latter would certainly explain why you scurry away and repeat the same BS anti left propaganda that was soundly refuted in the previous thread.
You constantly blame the left for everything, George Bush, a Republican, voted for by Republicans, supported by Republicans isn't really a Republican, he's a shadowy Socialist...
So what you're accusing me of is true of you, it's not my problem if you're incapable of critical thinking when looking at yourself or your ideals and prefer to blame everyone else for your imperfections and those of YOUR ideology.
Quote:Yes I said you'd say this in my last post. I get it, they're evil in a rightwing party, ergo they must be SOCIALIST INFILTRATORS! DANGER WILL ROBINSON! DANGER!
The so-called neocons never "left the left" they are mostly still democrats. They got some republicans with them, and some of their own became republicans. They are now a bipartisan group. They did not "move from left to right"
Quote:Yes I know dear, agree with Dreamtrove intelligent, disagree with Dreamtrove stupid. Because, after all, Dreamtrove is the supreme intelligence of the universe.
This is probably the dumbest thing you've ever posted. And you keep posting it.
What I find interesting is you take the Nazi's calling themselves national socialists as proof that fascism is leftist but ignore Mussolini calling fascism right wing. I guess
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I would probably compromise on some social programs if you and I were in govt. But in general, with the american democrats , and sure, this latest crop of republicans, social program usually means two things and two things only:
1. social control
Can you please provide some examples of the social programs that are actually a method of social control? Not asking for anything sourced. I'm asking for your examples.
Thanks.
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Press Freedom
I hope I don't have to explain the inverse relationship between free media and bias.
'"Each year new countries in less-developed parts of the world move up the Index to positions above some European countries or the United States. This is good news and shows once again that, even though very poor, countries can be very observant of freedom of expression. Meanwhile the steady erosion of press freedom in the United States, France and Japan is extremely alarming,” Reporters Without Borders said.
The United States (53rd) has fallen nine places since last year, after being in 17th position in the first year of the Index, in 2002. Relations between the media and the Bush administration sharply deteriorated after the president used the pretext of “national security” to regard as suspicious any journalist who questioned his “war on terrorism.” The zeal of federal courts which, unlike those in 33 US states, refuse to recognise the media’s right not to reveal its sources, even threatens journalists whose investigations have no connection at all with terrorism.
N° Country Score
1 Finland 0,50
- Iceland 0,50
- Ireland 0,50
- Netherlands 0,50
5 Czech Republic 0,75
6 Estonia 2,00
- Norway 2,00
8 Slovakia 2,50
- Switzerland 2,50
10 Hungary 3,00
- Latvia 3,00
- Portugal 3,00
- Slovenia 3,00
14 Belgium 4,00
- Sweden 4,00
16 Austria 4,50
- Bolivia 4,50
- Canada 4,50
19 Bosnia and Herzegovina 5,00
- Denmark 5,00
- New-Zealand 5,00
- Trinidad and Tobago 5,00
23 Benin 5,50
- Germany 5,50
- Jamaica 5,50
26 Namibia 6,00
27 Lithuania 6,50
- United Kingdom 6,50
29 Costa Rica 6,67
30 Cyprus 7,50
31 South Korea 7,75
32 Greece 8,00
- Mauritius 8,00
34 Ghana 8,50
35 Australia 9,00
- Bulgaria 9,00
- France 9,00
- Mali 9,00
39 Panama 9,50
40 Italy 9,90
41 El Salvador 10,00
- Spain 10,00
43 Taiwan 10,50
44 South Africa 11,25
45 Cape Verde 11,50
- Macedonia 11,50
- Mozambique 11,50
- Serbia and Montenegro 11,50
49 Chile 11,63
50 Israel 12,00
51 Japan 12,50
52 Dominican Republic 12,75
53 Botswana 13,00
- Croatia 13,00
- Tonga 13,00
- United States of America 13,00
57 Uruguay 13,75
58 Fiji 14,00
- Hong-Kong 14,00
- Poland 14,00
- Romania 14,00
62 Central African Republic 14,50
- Cyprus (North) 14,50
- Guinea-Bissau 14,50
- Honduras 14,50
66 Madagascar 15,00
- Togo 15,00
68 Ecuador 15,25
69 Nicaragua 15,50
70 Burkina Faso 16,00
- Kosovo 16,00
- Lesotho 16,00
73 Congo 17,00
- Kuwait 17,00
75 Brazil 17,17
76 Argentina 17,30
77 Mauritania 17,50
- Senegal 17,50
- United Arab Emirates 17,50
80 Albania 18,00
- Qatar 18,00
82 Paraguay 18,25
83 Timor-Leste 18,50
84 Liberia 19,00
85 Moldova 19,17
86 Mongolia 19,25
87 Haiti 19,50
88 Tanzania 19,82
.
.
.
166 Eritrea 97,50
167 Turkmenistan 98,50
168 North Korea 109,00'
http://www.rsf.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=639'
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CItizen
grow up
Rue
thanks, nice post on the fried press.
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Quote:Very hypocritical thing for you to say
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
CItizen
grow up
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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