Angel Raped Buffy, Spike only tried

POSTED BY: FURYFIRE
UPDATED: Saturday, July 24, 2004 20:07
VIEWED: 35067
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TSOULZ

Saturday, February 7, 2004 10:58 PM

Quote:
I agree with you - *Rape* is a forceful and violent act and shouldn't be a word to be tossed around. People believe that the act of subjugating a minor into a sex act is that very same type of incidious violence.

I will never deny a person their view or opinions, but some things need to be put under a magnifying glass. It all comes down to what a person has experienced in their own lives. I will grant the "statuatory rape" believers that anything under 15 or 16 years of age is a sick display of power-driven violence. But anything beyond that, unless truly RAPE or under the influence, can be considered consenting, regardless of what the judicial system says. I've known friends that were emancipated at 16 and 17 years old; and they're considered adults at that point. And no one, not a single soul will coerce me to believe that simply because I chose to live with my parents and not emancipate myself, that I was not adult enough to engage in "consenting" sex. I would quite happily spit in the face of a lawyer, judge, hell, the president if they wanted to tell me I couldn't make my own damn decisions when I was 16, even one so dyer as sex.

Politics...another agravating topic. Sorry...

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Saturday, February 7, 2004 11:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Litwolf689:
See Buffy encouraged him. So its not rape.

"It was the short skirt and lipstick you honour"

No further comment to make. (save to say I snipped the quote out of context somewhat)

"I threw up on your bed"

IDEFIX

Friday, February 13, 2004 4:33 PM

I'm sorry for bringing this up again. it's kind of an everlasting topic anyways but I had a dream last nicht about this thread and a whole new aspect to it:

we've talked about Buffy and Angel and we've talked about Buffy and Spike.
let's talk about Faith and Xander in "The Zeppo".

did Xander rape Faith in that EP? he was 19 because as I recall it was stated in the bug-lady EP in S1 that he was 17 then, so 2 years later he would have been 19. Faith's age was never stated to my knowledge but I think it was stated somewhere that Slayers get Called when they're 15 or 16. that would make Faith underage in "The Zeppo".

so if the man is off age and the girl is under age and the girl sexually attacks the guy and he consents he's guilty of rape? it was his first time no less, whereas she clearly had done this on many occasions with many men. just for the fun of it because "slaying makes her horny".

...just another thought.

and on a personal note. I was 14, when I first talked with a guy (he was 15) about having sex together and we decided to wait til I was 16 because we were good children and the law in germany says you have to be 16 to have sex. as it is our relationship didn't last 2 years (only about 1 but it was still a very deep and stable and good relationship as long as it lasted). I still regret it now (I'm 28 now). I really really should have slept with that boy because we both wanted it and we both loved each other and it would have been good for both of us. stupid decision of mine. one of not too many I really regret. and for no good reason also. we were sure it would be right and good - just the law said differently and we were too intimidated by it to ignore it. he would have been my perfect first time and I wasted it.

Idefix

IDEFIX

Friday, February 13, 2004 5:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Misguided By Voices:
Quote:
Originally posted by Litwolf689:
See Buffy encouraged him. So its not rape.

"It was the short skirt and lipstick you honour"

No further comment to make. (save to say I snipped the quote out of context somewhat)

have you seen the EP? cause that just sounds like a very stupid comparison to me. she wanted to sleep with him and all but told him to and never changed her mind thru all of it. she still wanted it the next day until she found out he's lost his soul and gone psycho. and later, when he got his soul back and returned from hell she still wanted to sleep with him and even did, once it was safe to do in the S1 Angel EP where he was human for a day. nothing like lipstick and a short skirt here to me.

I think people should be allowed to have a will of their own regardless of age. if no one gets manipulated there is a free will to consider. we are born with one. at least that's my believe. it is true that children are easier to manipulate than grown ups but they also have their own will and they are even able to state it if asked. and a 17 year old is no small child that can't be asked what she wants. I'd take a close look at the manipulation going on if one partner is very young and one is older but I can't decide that someone is too young to know what he or she wants in general. but laws around the world seem to make it easy by just stating an age (widely differing between nations) and be done with it. I think that's making it too easy.

I'm no fan of grown-ups abusing children sexually. but abuse has to be against the will of the child for it to be abuse. if the child is too young to grasp the concept of sex (under 10 years maybe) it still doesn't want it, that's the part that really harms the child, the not wanting it, not physically because it hurts and not emotionally because it's just not what he or she wants. after learning about sex (we here in germany learn the biology at 10-11 in school) the child will even be able to state that it doesn't want it before the act. I certainly was. you can think at that age and you can certainly feel and decide what feels good and what doesn't, some grown ups seem to forget that. if someone older or an authority figure threatens or manipulates the child into doing it anyway it's rape and I think rape of a child is worse than rape of an adult because the child can't deal with the violence of it in the same way an adult can or will learn to. rape is the worst crime one human being can commit against another. it tries to destroy not the body (like murder) but the soul/integrity. I don't want that crime assotiated with any underage consenting sex of whatever age.

and I don't even know why we all fight about this for this long. because at heart I believe we all just want no one to be raped ever, no child or adult no woman no man. but rape is about forced sex and talking a child into having sex he or she doesn't want is forced sex that's rape and the worst form of it. but a child of whatever age deciding to have sex with whomever of their own free will and not regretting it afterwards and being willing and eager to do it again that's not forced and therefore not rape. but that's not the law. I know that.

Idefix

FIVEBYFIVE

Friday, February 13, 2004 5:12 PM

Angel's not dead. He's Undead, duh.

JASONZZZ

Friday, February 13, 2004 5:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Idefix:
I'm sorry for bringing this up again. it's kind of an everlasting topic anyways but I had a dream last nicht about this thread and a whole new aspect to it:

we've talked about Buffy and Angel and we've talked about Buffy and Spike.
let's talk about Faith and Xander in "The Zeppo".

did Xander rape Faith in that EP? he was 19 because as I recall it was stated in the bug-lady EP in S1 that he was 17 then, so 2 years later he would have been 19. Faith's age was never stated to my knowledge but I think it was stated somewhere that Slayers get Called when they're 15 or 16. that would make Faith underage in "The Zeppo".

so if the man is off age and the girl is under age and the girl sexually attacks the guy and he consents he's guilty of rape? it was his first time no less, whereas she clearly had done this on many occasions with many men. just for the fun of it because "slaying makes her horny".

...just another thought.

and on a personal note. I was 14, when I first talked with a guy (he was 15) about having sex together and we decided to wait til I was 16 because we were good children and the law in germany says you have to be 16 to have sex. as it is our relationship didn't last 2 years (only about 1 but it was still a very deep and stable and good relationship as long as it lasted). I still regret it now (I'm 28 now). I really really should have slept with that boy because we both wanted it and we both loved each other and it would have been good for both of us. stupid decision of mine. one of not too many I really regret. and for no good reason also. we were sure it would be right and good - just the law said differently and we were too intimidated by it to ignore it. he would have been my perfect first time and I wasted it.

well... I can certainly understand how you feel about "should have done it"... there are prolly others who feel things the other way around too, i.e. "Shouldn't have done it...".... So, I guess it's just regretful all around, just depends on how you deal with the experience.

Quote:
Originally posted by Idefix:

Idefix

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PUDOR

Friday, February 13, 2004 5:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SlowSmurf:
What if the person gives consent before they die?(via a will or whatever)

I'm just curious what the courts would do with that...

Just to add a skewed note to the discussion, when I was going through my pseudo-goth phase at the age of 14, I filled in a necro-card (which were being given out pretty much everywhere). A necro-card (I'm not sure how *legal* they are, and I'm pretty sure they were mostly supposed to be a joke), basically was a copy of a donor-card, which you carry in your wallet, allowing anybody (or a named party) to use parts of your body (specified by your self) for sexual purposes after your death.

I always wondered what sort of legal status that would have if I'd died... ;)

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Sunday, February 15, 2004 10:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Idefix:
did Xander rape Faith in that EP? he was 19 because as I recall it was stated in the bug-lady EP in S1 that he was 17 then, so 2 years later he would have been 19. Faith's age was never stated to my knowledge but I think it was stated somewhere that Slayers get Called when they're 15 or 16. that would make Faith underage in "The Zeppo".

Legally? No, its not possible within the legal definition, as its stands in most countries, for a woman to "rape" a man. There's a separate offence in most cases of sex with a minor.

"I threw up on your bed"

IDEFIX

Monday, February 16, 2004 10:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Misguided By Voices:
Quote:
Originally posted by Idefix:
did Xander rape Faith in that EP? he was 19 because as I recall it was stated in the bug-lady EP in S1 that he was 17 then, so 2 years later he would have been 19. Faith's age was never stated to my knowledge but I think it was stated somewhere that Slayers get Called when they're 15 or 16. that would make Faith underage in "The Zeppo".

Legally? No, its not possible within the legal definition, as its stands in most countries, for a woman to "rape" a man. There's a separate offence in most cases of sex with a minor.

"I threw up on your bed"

read my post again. I didn't ask if Faith raped Xander. I asked if Xander raped Faith, because he was off age (19) and she was underage (about 16-17).

I asked to make if even clearer how stupid I think the law is. just have an "age of consent" and don't look at the circumstances or people involved.

Idefix

ELYSIAN

Wednesday, May 12, 2004 11:46 PM

Did Angel rape Buffy in "I Will Remember You"? He slept with her and then stripped her of her memories of that. No-one can ever consent to sex without knowing that their memory of it will be gone . . . I don't think.

Insofar as Spike . . . Spike was a victim of domestic abuse. She beat him constantly. I know domestic abuse can be a qualifier for murder, say if you lost control and killed your abuser. Can anyone say that Spike was in his right mind?! I'm not sure that excuses what he did, but it does put it in a context.

Comments?

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