IMDB comments

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Originally posted by Redjack:

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Originally posted by Ghoulman:
^^^ well, I can agree that imho the Confederacy was in the wrong. That is, they were making a clearly illegal and greedy grab at ... well, everything.

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Big of you. Considering it's true.

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The rhetoric of the time (no, I don't know much about it) certainly shows the South to be the aggressor. The so called 'War of Northern Aggresion' is a cliche' as propoganda.

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You should really check both the official rhetoric and, more importantly, the PRIVATE communications of Confederates at the time.

You have no idea how frustrating it is to try to sustain debate with folks who don't know the facts and don't wish to seek them out. Only yourself and one other seem to have even a tangential grasp of the events in question. Yet those who take the proConfederate side (did I say Yikes about that yet?) continue to flap their metaphoric gums.

Please.

As I said, it would be irritating if it wasn't so disappointing and sad.

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However... I believe everyone is taking your absolute position of 'the Confederates are scum! Evil!' with all the seriousness it deserves. Of course, any absolute is a failure to recognise the subtle fact that life isn't like that. Not by a long shot. Colouring your comments with 'rabid ugly dog' and the like only makes you appear unretractable.

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I think it was "rabid ugly animal." I like dogs.

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Which you keep insisting too! Please, you keep telling us how knowledgeable you are about the subject yet insist on refering to the Confederacy as the very earthly embodyment of Hell itself.

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Never did that. The only comparisson I drew was between the South and Hitler's Germany. Which is totally analogous ...

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Never? (Ghoulman counts the number of times REDJACK refered to the Confederacy as 'EVIL'... toooo many!) Well I think you're definition of 'evil' is about as sophisticated as George Dubya Bushs'.

Don't mean to gang up on ya REDJACK but you're language is confusing. You can't call the Confederacy 'evil' as it implies (or at least people will infer) the PEOPLE are evil too. And then you called them Nazis.

It's not an argument. You have an absolute position and keep trying to justify this position. Well, with launguage like that I think you're confusing people and colouring facts with your point of view.

Comparing 19th century Southern U.S people to Nazis is certainly a colourful image, but hardly accurate.

Man, we are ganging up. Sorry REDJACK. I don't have time to sift through all of this so I hope I'm not stating old news.

I dislike this forum software... get some UBB for frell sake!

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And just when I thought this was going to get civil and mature, the snide comments start up again.

Drakon, you are wasting your time. I will not waste more of mine w/ someone who insists on being rude.


"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Originally posted by Ghoulman:

Never? (Ghoulman counts the number of times REDJACK refered to the Confederacy as 'EVIL'... toooo many!)

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I never refered to my opponents or anyone living as evil. Not once ever. The Confedracy and the South of the time was evil. That is not in dispute. I can never count it too many times.

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Well I think you're definition of 'evil' is about as sophisticated as George Dubya Bushs'.

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Heh. That punk couldn't tie me in a game of tic-tac-toe much less win. Talk about insulting. As if.

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Don't mean to gang up on ya REDJACK but you're language is confusing.

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Not really. If you're confused, I suggest reading aloud. It will help.

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You can't call the Confederacy 'evil' as it implies (or at least people will infer) the PEOPLE are evil too. And then you called them Nazis.

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The Confedracy was, for white men, a democracy. It maintained its existance on the degredation, rape, torture and murder of literally millions of people over centuries. It determined its victims solely on the basis of skin color. The Confederacy was evil by any objective measure. You do the math. I'm not being too confusing now, am I?

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It's not an argument.

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Not so far anyway.

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You have an absolute position and keep trying to justify this position.

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No. I "justify" nothing. I state facts which, btw, have yet to be refuted.

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Comparing 19th century Southern U.S people to Nazis is certainly a colourful image, but hardly accurate.

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Actually as far as the analogy went, it's exactly spot on. Yes, the conditions that lead Germany to war were dissimilar, but the mindset of the two nations is nearly identical. Again, if you read the writings of the people in question, you'll find them chillingly similar.

Unless of course one agrees with them. In that event there would be no chill.

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Man, we are ganging up.

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Please. A lot of people holding a stupid belief doesn't give the belief any more validity. It just means a lot of people can't sift the data properly. "Gang up" to your heart's content.

But go crack a book or two as well.


The Price of Knowledge is Knowing.
Audrid Dax

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... go se, I'm home with the 56K and MAN the DL is harsh! This thread is tooooo long! I hate this forum software. Did I meantion that? UBB please!

Please, don't take my flip GWB joke as anything but a little jab.

I'm not sure I'm on to just what the arguement is, as I say; I'm still confused.

I guess my thing here is that calling the Confederacy 'evil' as defined by the Nazis... can't be particularly justified. Apples and oranges as evil goes. Just an opinion.

And it might be safe to say that throwing around the word 'evil' to describe any arguement about a particular people is inflammatory. You can get away with evil when talking about Nazis but it's not a word I've ever heard so directly aimmed at 'the Confederacy'.

... still, in regard with how the South made it's living off the blood of millions for a few centuries, well yea! That's evil, no doubt. Right up there with the Nazis though different imho. I don't directly associate 'the Confederacy' with the South in this issue. I thought we were on about the Civil War not the history of Southern slavery (easily one of the most horrific crimes anywhere, anytime. Up there with the Holocaust, the Inquisition, etc.)

Perhaps what I mean to say is that I might agree that the Confederacy was 'evil' in some sense, certainly they were an illegal government, a junte as it where. But do you mean to say that the Southern folk were somehow 'evil' sociologically as opposed to being more or less as 'evil' as anyone else at the time. I don't know much about it but I wonder if I can infer you mean that since slavery was so large a part of everyones life that the cruelty created a culture of evil? How deep are ya goin' here partner?

See... this is what I'm missing here.

Anyho', start a new thread... I can't DL this! Im out, have a nice week-end! Shiny!

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Originally posted by Ghoulman:
... go se, I'm home with the 56K and MAN the DL is harsh! This thread is tooooo long! I hate this forum software. Did I meantion that? UBB please!

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You're being rude. This site is hand coded by a genius named Haken who works really hard and this is a great site. So maybe a polite suggestion to Haken is in order, he welcomes your opinion. But if you hate it so much maybe you shouldn't come here or at least stop saying you hate his site every time you post.

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The Dog won't bark no more, if you stop waving the meat in front of him. It's no persuading or arguing with folks who:

1. calls you unread, unintelligent, and apparently feels the need to *remind* you aboot that at every turn of the game.

2. self-professes to be well-read and intelligent. Really? well-read and intelligent don't feel the need to overcompensate and scream that out every second of the day. The only thing it does demonstrate is how egomanical folks can be.

Otto: "Well, Monkey don't read Philosphy".
Wanda: [looks at Otto holding a book] "Really?"

Stop responding to it and it will go home and bark at himself.

Hitler himself used the same type of strategy in convincing himself and his friends very much the same things. He barks and repeats exactly the same flawed opinion and offers it as "Analysis", "Fact", and "Data". Claiming that the presumed target is "Evil". Filling the room with Hatred. Barking and Barking the exact same irrelevance and Polarizing the conversation to wear you down until you are too tired to oppose. It works well when folks are already at a lost, struggling to survive and needs something, somewhere, whatever that might "make sense" to blame. People like that are already completely convinced that their delusion gradeur is true and believes that if they bark at you long enough and hard enough, you will see it too - you see, precisely because you are "insignificant, stupid, and can't form a logical argument if it could save you. Oh but it's not your fault, it's their fault". ho hum.

Converse with him, interact with him and you give him a platform to preach. Listen to him and you aid him in his foolish irrelevent cause. Pry him and you draw him out and let him infect you with his hatred. Bah. It's always the same stream of nonsense.

Why talk with him, we can just post to each other using the same set of words on replay. I'll start:

"They are Evil"
"Just like the Nazis"
"Go read some books"
"I am ultra-intelligent, well read, and you are not"
"I offer only exact data and fact, you offer stupid uneducated opinion"
"My, look who didn't hit the library in their entire live"

I think that about sum up the entire conversation so far.

Like Fireflyfans.net?
Haken needs a new development system. Donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283

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Succatash wrote:
You're being rude. This site is hand coded by a genius named Haken who works really hard and this is a great site. So maybe a polite suggestion to Haken is in order, he welcomes your opinion. But if you hate it so much maybe you shouldn't come here or at least stop saying you hate his site every time you post. Point taken.

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:

The Dog won't bark no more, if you stop waving the meat in front of him. blah blah blah blah blah blah scream that out every second of the day. The only thing it does demonstrate is how egomanical folks can be.

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Who's screaming. Most of my sentances end in periods. See?

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Hitler himself used the same type of strategy in convincing himself and his friends very much the same things.

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I'm Hitler because I likened the pre-war ( pre mid-20th century really) South and the Confederacy to the Nazis?

Yikes, dude.

Hitler would have LOVED Old Dixie.

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He barks and repeats exactly the same flawed opinion and offers it as "Analysis", "Fact", and "Data". Claiming that the presumed target is "Evil". Filling the room with Hatred.

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Should we love the Confederacy? Embrace its ideals or even justify them?

I'm serious. I've asked for a list. Nothing has come forth.

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Barking and Barking the exact same irrelevance and Polarizing the conversation to wear you down until you are too tired to oppose.

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I know you won't agree wiht me. But somebody has to put the actual truth out amongst all the rubbish.

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...It works well when folks are already at a lost, struggling to survive and needs something, somewhere, whatever that might "make sense" to blame. blah blah blah People like that are already completely convinced that their delusion gradeur is true and believes that if they bark at you long enough and hard enough, you will see it too - you see, precisely because you are "insignificant, stupid, and can't form a logical argument if it could save you. Oh but it's not your fault, it's their fault".

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Not exactly sure what all that meant but...

I never said anyone was insignificant. I never said anyone was stupid. I said some of the notions were stupid. They are.

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Converse with him, interact with him and you give him a platform to preach. Listen to him and you aid him in his foolish irrelevent cause.

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Foolish? Maybe. Irrelevant? I can't think of anything more relevant to the enjoyment of FIREFLY than a real understanding of the backdrop.

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Pry him and you draw him out and let him infect you with his hatred.

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I don't hate anybody. Waste of time.

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Why talk with him, we can just post to each other using the same set of words on replay. I'll start:

"They are Evil"
"Just like the Nazis"
"Go read some books"
"I am ultra-intelligent, well read, and you are not"
"I offer only exact data and fact, you offer stupid uneducated opinion"
"My, look who didn't hit the library in their entire live"

I think thsat about sum up the conversation so far.

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That would be fine, I guess if you also post

"Ignorance is best."
"Don't confuse me with the facts"
and
"Shut up. I think the Confederates should have WON."

You know, just so the opposition gets their points heard. It's all about being fair and balanced, right?




The Price of Knowledge is Knowing.
Audrid Dax

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Originally posted by BrownCoat1:


I consider myself American, but I am also Southern. I guess it is a bit of the same torn loyalties men faced during the war; fight for your country against your home state, neighbors, family and friends, or side w/ your state and fight against your country. Not an easy decision for most I am sure.

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A soldier is honor bound to their duty and cause. One could not simply let more than 10,000 enemy prisoners loose in the South. The whole purpose of prisons was to keep those soldiers out of the fight.

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Given their condition at the time it would have made better strategic sense to release them than to keep them. An influx of 10,000 terribly wounded and malnourished men would have drained Union reserves massively.

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Odd how you did not acknowledge the much higher death rate of Confederate soldiers in Union prisons. The Union had more resources, food and medicine than the South, yet the Confederate death rate was far higher than the CSA prisons.

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My feeling on this is this:

First off, I have no specific data about the inner workings of Union POW camps. Since everyone– despite political leaning– acknowledges Andersonville as the most egregious camp, we can assume that other factors than torture and neglect are the result of the slightly higher percentage of Condederate POW deaths.

What are those other factors? Well.

The rebel army was, as you said, poorer than the American army, and had fewer men, yet was attempting to accomplish essentially the same task.

This means that the rebels were forced to fight longer once wounded and to stay in the feild with fewer supplies either medical or nutritional.

I would guess that the basic condition of a rebel soldier arriving at an American camp was worse than his American counterpart.

That would account for the slightly higher death rate.

But it's just a guess.

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On the point of Andersonville, I do not understand why all communications from the Confederate Congress, Wirz, and Union prisoners themselves were refused by Lincoln and the Union. The prisoner exchange was stopped by Lincoln and all letters asking for the exchange to continue went unanswered. Wirz event sent a group of Union prisoners on Parole to Washington to appeal to Lincoln were sent back without Lincoln so much as talking to them.

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Dunno. My guess is, by that stage of the war, all Lincoln wanted to hear from the South was an unconditional surrender.

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Guess Lincoln and his staff were not decent men.

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Never said Lincoln was a saint. But he was infinitely closer to being one than ANY of the Confederates. Demonstrably.

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Depends on your definition of treason & which side you were on.

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No. Depends on your stated affiliation and the country you live in. And what you're willing to do about the affiliation.

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For the sake of keeping peace, let's call them ex-Confederates.

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Fair enough.

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The South, and Southerners have made many contributions to our country, and our society, as you point out. At least we can agree on that much.

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Hey. I'm a big fan of Americans. That's my point.

I'm bowing out now. I think the horse is well dead.

I do hope some who read this "debate" will be inspired to actually look into the history of the Confedracy and the Pre-War South. I hope that they will have the presence of mind and decency of spirit to call the thing what it was.

Not sorry about the ruffled feathers but, then, you know that.

And I love FIREFLY.




The Price of Knowledge is Knowing.
Audrid Dax

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