Evil Firefly Haters
POSTED BY: Succatash
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 07:06
VIEWED: 55301
PAGE 18 of 20
Originally posted by Drakon
Umm.. Do we really know the war was a civil one? It may have been an Alliance war of conquest. We really don't know, and the more I think about it, Mal does mention "uniting all the planets under one government to be equally ignored". If they were not united in the first place, then how could the INDEPENDENTS rebel? Wouldn't they have been called Rebels instead by the Alliance?
"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"
Good question, actually. I got the Civil War impression from non-canonical sources, I.E. TV Guide's first Firefly article, and from semi-canonical sources, such as Joss's more-than-occasional references to the historical parallels involved. But Drakon's right; nothing in the actual episodes establishes the nature of the conflict as such.
Keep in mind though, that I'm trying to come up with a simple explanation of the show's historical parallel to use on the uninitiated.
"These are simple folk. The common clay of the new land. You know... Morons." -- The Waco Kid
RocketJock
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When I came across Mr. Zaza's article on Ex Isle forums, I was rather unimpressed with his tone, which struck me as unnecessarily mean-spirited. Also, his opinions on the artistic merit of Firefly seem to me groundless. I didn't watch Firefly because it was good science-fiction (although that helps); I watched Firefly because the characters - Simon, River and Book in particular - were interesting, annoying slang aside. Also, it seemed almost reminiscient of Trigun (one of my favourite TV shows of all time, period). Also, the reason I could be talked into watching the DVD's at all was that I was told it wouldn't be 'Buffy In Space' (and was glad to find that, indeed, it wasn't).
I may be treading some dangerous ground here, but... Though Mr. Zaza reads as both pretentious and contentious in his approach to Firefly's historical references, he does make some valid points. When I watched the show for the first time, I must say that I immediately caught the references to the Civil War and asked a lot of the same questions Mr. Zaza asked. I think that this kind of implicit sympathy for the Confederate cause (even in a fictional scenario), especially where the aspects of institutionalised racism and exploitation go ignored, is reprehensible to say the least. And (my apologies to Mr. RocketJock for what may seem a hardline attitude) but slavery is an evil whose greater I'm hard-pressed to discover, so I must agree with Mr. Zaza in that '[t]he Confederates needed a good spanking and they got it'.
Also, I'm not catching the point in the series or in the movie where it's made clear that slavery was one of the evils of the Alliance (since references to slavery in both 'Shindig' and 'Jaynestown' ostensibly took place on outer worlds where the Alliance still has very little presence).
你们写中文的时候，清写中文写得正确。
同盟万岁！
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Now I haven't read all of this thread because I feel the need to put in my 2 cents right now, so here I go.
to everyone who thinks the civil war was about slavery, and only slavery I have a question for which I shall recieve lots of flack and fire but it must be asked
IS YOUR HEAD UP YOUR ASS FOR THE WARMPTH?
I hate having to ask this quesion and will probably be called uncivil for it but I had to, because no matter how far back in time you look you will never find a war that was fought for only one reason, never name a war and there are 10 reasons or more why it was fought. slavery wasn't even the main reason. the MAIN reason was that the north was unfairly taxing them 
well who knew I could get so long-winded
it's my insanity that keeps me sane hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
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Quote:
I'm sure it was also much better than "Tru Calling," though I haven't actually seen that show.
Actually, despite the cliche premise of reliving days to save people from dying (and boy, is that a cliche premise, I'll admit), and the dorky title (which references the main character's name. I think there's even a joke she makes about how dorky her name was, I'm not sure, it's been a while), the execution was remarkably good on "Tru Calling", especially after, of all things, Jason Preiestly joined the cast. I was as shocked as anybody could be at a former 90210 actor actually... you know, being able to ACT, but he provided a very good conflict for the show, as they expanded on the mythos and it became increasingly unclear as to whether Tru's using her power to save people is actually Good, or secretly, perhaps, serving the not-so-Good side, since every moment a person who could have died is alive, there is a ripple affect. It's slowly-but-surely implied that each (Tru and Jack, Jack being Preistley's character) is being manipulated as a weapon in some sort of bigger, perhaps cosmic-level war by forces that humans can perhaps never hope to comprehend... and you have NO IDEA whose side would be "right" or "wrong", if any.
The earliest episodes were OK (aside from the writers being a bit confused as to what character subplots they should intro or kill, for a while there), but the later episodes were the best. Basically, I would recommend most starting with the episodes where Preistly's character came in. Well, that's assuming you can find anybody who still might rent the show, instead of resorting to buying it (though it's been out on DVD for so long, you might very well be able to find a damn good deal on it, who knows). Wonderfalls died sooner and quicker, and it's still selling better than TC. :P I actually found a Wonderfalls boxset in Best Buy a few weeks back, but could not find TC.
The biggest problem with TC was that by the time they had found their sea legs, they were put in opposite CSI (which killed it), then canceled in favor of Point Pleasant (dead), then Fox didn't even show the final episode after PP failed, because it was a Christmas episide and it was spring when they aired the "second season" (read: final 6 of 26 episodes). So there's not much real resolution, though you can see tantalizing hints of where it could have gone, and it would actually have been pretty damn interesting, with a lot of moral ambiguity and increasingly developed characters and, yes, even a surprisingly well-done cat-and-mouse game between Tru and Jack.
But I think I've aided in the resurrection of this thread for long enough. :P Just thought I'd chime in, since somebody mentioned TC, and I always thought that TC was rather underrated, especially considering how bad it COULD have been (heck, I even gave in to the impulse and bought a copy of both seasons' DVD sets, though I still haven't gotten around to watching/rewatching any of them). I do personally like Firefly better (I like the characters better, for the most part, and there's more developed characters period, let alone characters I like), but it was a decent show that would have gotten pretty damn good if it had had a full second season (I read the blog of one of the writers shortly after the thing was canceled... poor things. They had planned out through season 2, episode 8 of TC... only to learn that only 6 episodes had been ordered for the second season). Wonderfalls was another good one, actually, arguably better in turn than TC and... I admit, sometimes, I feel like it's (Wonderfalls, I mean) the funniest damn show I've ever seen. Though I'm most happy with the lesson Tim Minear (exec producer on both Firefly and Wonderfalls) learned from Firefly, which was: Have the first season be completely and utterly able to be self-contained, because you may NEVER get a chance to finish it. He was right on the money, since it got canceled after being put in the Time Slot of Doom as well (why they didn't put it on Wednesday or Tuesday or Monday, I'll
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Since I'm kind of the only one who mentioned the Civil War in the last half-page or so (this is a rather long thread, I agree) - I'll have to assume that the 'head up your a$$' question was aimed in my general direction.
To which I defy you, Guywhowantsafireflyofhisown, to show me precisely where and when I said that the Civil War was about slavery and only slavery. It was about different ways of life and different ways of thinking. But you are absolutely, one-hundred percent, one-hundred-and-eighty degrees WRONG about the Civil War being primarily fought because, um, how did you put it?... 'the north [sic] was unfairly taxing them'.
There were multiple reasons, tariffs being one of them. But tariffs were only unfair to the landed gentry of the South whose humongous profit margins were being cut into a little too much by the federal government. And tariffs were only an immediate reason.
For example, I could ask why the Roman Empire fell and you could say because the Huns invaded and caused mass migrations among East Germanic tribes who plundered and looted the empire until it collapsed. But I would ask you to look at the larger picture: Rome had grown corrupt and complacent over the past several centuries, oppressing and enslaving minority groups such as the Iceni and the Jews. Popular opinion was not with them. Also, their army was largely composed of Germanic mercenaries who deserted or revolted when the Roman commanders were no longer able to pay them.
So again, with the Civil War, I'm asking you to take a look at the larger picture. You have a country which since its inception was composed of two different types of people: East Midlanders who migrated to New England to be able to practise their own respective forms of Low Church Calvinism (though still wanting to do trade with their mother country) in the North and lesser scions of the nobility and poor families in the north of England who thought they could make better fortunes by farming in the South. (You can flame me all you want for oversimplification here, the fact remains that it's a good heuristic model.)
Slavery became an issue later (though still before the Revolution), but since it wasn't prevalent in the Northern merchant centres and it was prevalent in the Southern agricultural regions, it quickly became a regional issue. Add to this that many of the aforementioned Low Church Calvinists (and their spiritual cousins the Quakers) had ethical qualms slavery that later became widespread in the North, and that makes slavery a pretty damn big sectional issue by the time the Civil War comes around.
If you're ready for a civil chat about history instead of an exchange of childish one-liners, I'm here all week. PurpleBelly86, thank-you-very-much-everyone-no-there-is-no-second-person-plural-in-the-English -language, signing off.
你讲中文的时候，讲中文讲得正确啊。
联盟万岁！
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The war had very little, if anything, to do with slavery. The slavery aspect of the Civil War was nothing more than a means for public school brainwashing of children to believe that the South is full of racist rednecks and that the Confederate flag, the true symbol of American patriotism, has been reduced, in the mind's eye of the masses, to the status of the Swastika.
The South rebeled against the North for many reasons, but in general it was opposition of all of the meddling the North did. People who win the wars write the history.... that's why we don't read about Southern war heros in school. That's why we vilanize the rebellion in real life but embrace it in Star Wars. People don't take too kindly to a centralized government dictating everything they do in their life. The South knew back then what the North was capable of and though the North didn't have the technological means in those days, America has become very Orwellian with it's technology and law today and delights in meddling with other countries and cultures as well as the personal lives of it's own people. We've become borderline Fasist, and will soon be a Police State.... even sooner if we let teachers carry guns in schools.
The North, New York, Wall Street, all the money... all of it being used to exploit peoples of third world countries and reduce them to slaves in factories and make children who are 8 years old and younger work in sweat shops so we can have our disposable dinnerware and styrofoam cups and cheap clothes and shoes. That's what we do now. Just because it's not happening in your back yard doesn't mean that we still don't have and condone slaverey, even if only on a subconscious level for most of the masses. Only difference now is that it's not black slavery and it's not in your face. Hell even the African Americans benefit today off the slavery of third world countries..... anybody else smell the irnoy? I'm drowing in it. The only reason your clothes are so cheap is because some asian kid is working in conditions akin to our greatgrandfathers slaving away in coal mines made a shirt for you today and got to bring back a quarter to his family for his day's work.
It's truly unfortunate that a wonderful symbol of freedom and old school American patriotism and hard work, the Confederate flag, has become a symbol of racism and hate because of the public school system and the media.
To he who thinks that we're better off with the North having won, you muppets for the Empire, I've lived in the North all my life. I'm a resident of the Chicago Suburbs and I hate Repuglicans and Demoncrats alike. The Repuglicans are really f
ing everything up now but the Demoncrats were doing pretty well themselves for 8 years before that and I'm not looking forward to their next inevitable 8 years. We are in desperate need of a third party to help balance out the corruption. Think about that before you start calling me a red neck. I just happen to be a freedom loving patriot who doesn't like the way this government is going and wishes that the South had won. At least we'd have a choice to which principals we choose to live by. Blind believers that this is the way.... The propoganda oozes from the pores of the masses who now have a higher concentration of propoganda pumping through their bodies than they do water.
Are you even human anymore, or a mindless yes-bot for Big Brother?
It's really convenient for people to have such clear cut ideals of good and evil or black and white, or in this case... blue and grey. It makes you go to sleep a lot easier at night when you don't have to think about any of the indoctrination you've been shoveled since you were a little kid.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Well said 6ixStringJack & Purplebelly86. Both of you make logical, educated points, and it is good to see open debate without the all too often spiraling into name calling that normally happens when the subject of the War Between the States and its causes comes up.
My stand on things has been made quite clear further up in this thread, but I would like to add one observation that in recent years has been proven to be true. When the Confederacy lost their bid for independence, the South was not the only ones to lose. Seems the vision our Founding Fathers had for this country has been lost. Our government is rife with corruption. The states are powerless and the thing that our Fathers warned us about has come to pass: an all powerful central government sits in D.C. Guess we ALL lost the War.
__________________________________________
Holding the line since December '02!
"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."
Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:
http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/
http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org
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The Chinese have the perfect response to your little rant here: 这套真是你的放屁。
Lemme see. This little response was full of so much bs that I don't know where to begin. Let's start with the assumption that I am a... um, how did you put it?... 'mindless yes-bot for Big Brother'. How did you come to this astounding conclusion. Pray enlighten the rest of us unworthy mortals on how your exalted mind came to such a pontification.
I am no yes-bot for anyone but myself and my own conscience; I don't respect nationalism or patriotism in the forms people often describe. It's dangerous and it brainwashes people to the suffering of others who happen to have been born outside their own borders. I stand for what I think is right, and if it had been the North that endorsed slavery and the South that brought about emancipation, I would have been fully in favour of the South.
That said, I consider myself fairly well-read in American history, especially religious history, having read Dorrien, Zinn et al. (If you've ever read Zinn, it's pretty easy to imagine that after having read that, it's hard to walk away with any indoctrination at all. It's a history that makes you actually think [gasp].) You can take any kind of spin you want, but you can't deny that slavery, being one of the dividing factors between the South and the North, did take a central role in causing the split that made the Civil War even possible. How else can the first of the schisms in American Protestantism be explained? Or the furore over the Fugitive Slave Act? Or Bloody Kansas, et cetera ad nauseam. Again, I'm not saying that slavery was the only reason, and I'm not even saying that it was the pivotal reason. But to deny its role would be to deny a huge mistake in history. If we forget, we shall be doomed to repeat.
Believe me on this one. Being half-Jewish, you can imagine I have something of a perspective on this issue. Likening the Confederate battle-flag to the swastika may not be the best of analogies, but given the way the black people at my school and in my community act about it, I'd say it's probably fairly apt.
Also, being one of your draconian Northerners, it's difficult not to take offense at your obviously bigoted and ill-educated views. The city that I call my home is fairly metropolitan and diverse in both ancestry and viewpoint, and I've never seen or heard anything about the city or state or national government making undue interference in my daily life. (And yes, I did read about Lee, Jackson and Davis in school.) But I know for a fact that I would be drummed out of most Southern towns and universities within a week, because I'm not enough of a Bush lapdog and I'm too much of an 'egghead' (not my description). I'm sorry, but I don't see anything to justify your veneration or your mistaken nostalgia in a country that based its existence on the systematic exploitation of an entire subset of the population based solely on their parentage.
You're welcome to your own opinion, but I would rather live in a society that values an ethic of tolerance, equality and civility than in a society run by the ultra-right-wing fundamentalists and the agriculture and extraction industries that seem to have a stranglehold on the South. Sorry, but I'll take NYC and Wall Street any day over Lynchburg Town and Woolworth's. Rather people would have my wallet than my neck, or the neck of my (free, black) former roommate.
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I can see where you're coming from, BrownCoat1. But it seems to me that if you're going to devolve power away from a central government, devolving into a government closer to home, even so might not be such a good idea. Already we're having trouble with the gay marriage issue. Massachusetts accepts gay marriage, New York recognises gay marriages from other countries, whereas other states refuse to recognise any gay marriage, abroad or at home. Euthanasia is another example. Does each state get to determine the practise of its doctors, such that they cannot practise in other states, or might even be arrested for practising? How is that less totalitarian than having a uniform standard for medical care?
If local issues are of concern, I'd say abolish the state system entirely and go by district. Direct democracy by population, or at least as direct as we can get it; none of this electoral college bull. We wouldn't have issues like gerrymandering or the rivalries between inner California and coastal California, or Illinois and, well, Chicago. And people would be free to address issues that directly affect them.
To be honest, 'states' rights' is kind of an artificial issue to me. States are regions based on an antiquated colonial system which we no longer support, and to be perfectly frank, it's holding us back.
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I know there is a huge misconception among northerners as to the reasons behind the civil war. Just ask any school aged child in CT ..Why did we go to war with the south? Because of slavery! What rubbish. And, we were all taught that. It took me 32 years to finally understand that the war was over something far more important than slavery. And that, is a giant 'Shame on you' to our education system. 32 years to learn the truth....Clam chowder!! we had it, they didn't, and we wanted to keep it that way...Well, it's true......
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