Evil Firefly Haters
POSTED BY: Succatash
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 07:06
VIEWED: 55301
PAGE 19 of 20
Therein lies the problem PurpleBelly; there is no way in the Special Hell that the federal government would ever relinquish any of it's power. Not ever. They have been working since 1861 (earlier in some respects) to steal away what power they have now. They put a lot of years and effort into it and they will never give it up. There is too much power and money involved to ever simply give it back to the people or states.
I don't necessarily agree with you on statehood holding us back. We can clearly see in history that the needs of certain regions and it's people do not always coincide w/ the needs of people from another. To do away with states and divide them into districts might work on a small scale, but would it not just cause even more political infighting and allow for more corruption.
No, the ideas of our Founding Fathers, for a Republic free of the oppression and interference of an all powerful central government are gone. Short of another revolution we will never win them back.
It reminds me of a line from the "Patriot":
"Why should I trade one tyrant three thousand miles away for three thousand tyrants one mile away?"
Is this not in effect what we have done?
__________________________________________
Holding the line since December '02!
"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."
Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:
http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/
http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org
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Quote:
Originally posted by TragicStory:
Wow, where to start? I guess Zaza has a problem with fact that slavery WAS NOT the main reason for the Civil War, no more than the Holocaust was for WWII.
It seems that everything he doesn't like about the South (or history in general) is connected to Firefly on purpose (instead of his warpped imagination) (For some reason McVeigh the NORTHERNER is tied in with the "evil south)
Lastly, I like how this waste of skin doesn't even KNOW that Fox isn't making the movie.
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"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger
the civil war was fought for states rights, slavery was an issue but not the ONLY issue. just like the browncoats wants independent right for each plant, same with the south, but it was for the states.
Keep Flying!!
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Hmm. Definitely not that big of a Mel Gibson fan, so I'm afraid the reference is lost on me.
Even so, I'm not sure but some level of centralisation of power is needed for any federation of states to work. We tried the entire Confederation deal well before 1861, and it failed miserably. (Perhaps you know of the Articles of Confederation?) It's one of the reasons we have a Constitution now, and provisions for a federal system of government.
As regards the second point, I think that states might be able to work - but only if we get rid of the electoral college, to ensure that all states are treated equally when electing the president. Why should states with tiny populations, like Wyoming, get votes that count for three times as much as states like California, because of such an unbalanced system?
Also, I would dispute that the federal government in Washington is 'all-powerful'. A number of states, including my own, signed Kyoto-compliant environmental standards into state law without the approval of the federal government, even though the Bush Administration refused. Why does Oregon now allow euthanasia, or Massachusetts gay marriage and Vermont civil unions? All of these are contentious issues on the national stage, but as you can see there is little the federal government has done to take away the states' rights to legislate in these matters. (Though it may end up having to at some point when inter-state disputes over the legality of gay marriage, euthanasia and environmental regulations turn up.)
As far as the 'dream of the Founding Fathers' goes, depends on the Founding Father you look at. It seems that Alexander Hamilton would approve vociferously of the system we have today, where business organisations operate largely without government oversight and even have significant representation on K Street, but I doubt Ben Franklin or John Adams would have agreed with him.
Of one thing I am sure: even though some of the Founding Fathers owned slaves, most of them recognised nevertheless that it was an evil that would have to go at some point. Many of them realised the hypocrisy in fighting in the name of freedom a power which granted freedom to all its insular-side subjects, while the rebels themselves owned slaves. But it took the brave actions of people like William Ellery Channing, William Lloyd Garrison, Frederick Douglass and even John Brown to make people realise that 'some point' was not just 'any point'.
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Oh, I am very familiar with the Articles of Confederation.
I believe that the central government, as it was originally laid out was the best plan. They were to negotiate disputes between the states, be responsible for diplomacy with foreign powers, and to organize the military against any outside threat to the country. That should have been the extent of their power.
Now, we have federal income tax, the federal government has spread their political and military reach across the entire globe, and the electoral college. Our government has become more of an empire than what it was originally intended to do.
I agree that several states have passed laws on the death sentence, euthanasia and the gay marriage without interference, but why do you think that is exactly? Is it because the states still have a plethora of rights, or is it because the government in D.C. is too afraid to take a stand on a hot button issue one way or the other? If they leave it to the states to decide, they wash their hands of subject and have plausible deniability to keep them from losing too many votes in the next election.
I agree with you on the electoral college. The system is broken and should be done away with, the sooner the better.
One of my examples of the usurping of power by the federal government is the deployment of Guard troops overseas. The guard are organized and run by their home states and were organized for the protection of that state. Yet the federals call them up, deploy them full time overseas, and deny their use to the state that created them. Prime example is the Louisiana Guard unit that is an engineering unit. When Katrina hit and their home state was devastated, they asked to come home to do their job. The federals would not let them. The state of Louisiana asked for them to be released to do the job they were created for. Still the feds refused. That is wrong. Guard troops are meant for home defense, not furthering the federal agenda overseas.
Alexander Hamilton was a Federalist as I am sure you are familiar with the Federalist Papers, so it is no surprise his vision did not meet that of the other Founders. Limitation of power for the central government was something that all, with the exception of Hamilton, agreed upon. They had seen how power could corrupt and it negative impact upon citizens, and they wished to avoid that for our fledgling country. Too bad those who came after, especially from 1861 on, did not heed those warnings.
I agree that many saw slavery as "evil" and as an institution that could not and should not last forever. Like the Confederate States of America though, the Founding Fathers had no answer for how such an institution could be done away with without the total collapse of the agrarian system of the South. Some of the Southern States, such as Virginia, were taking steps, even before the War to limit or ban the importation of slaves. This was a small step, but the first step nevertheless toward the dismantling of slavery. Given time, and a viable means for replacing the manpower, slavery would have disappeared in the South. A dark spot on our history to be sure, but one shared by nearly every nation on this planet.
__________________________________________
Holding the line since December '02!
"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."
Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:
http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/
http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org
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This may surprise you, but I actually agree with you on many points. The decision concerning the Louisiana National Guard was, of course, wrong on the federal government's part, but I'm not seeing the connection to 'states' rights' there, even though the liberties that the state can take with its own National Guard were being infringed. I see that as the Bush Administration and the Republican Party trying to save face with regards to the Iraq War (or their domestic policy, or both), or trying to avoid a situation where they might lose it. It's something they do all the time more and more, I notice, and it's gotten to the point where I'm not really surprised by it anymore. I guess the Republican philosophy has become 'big government is good government if it's our government'.
Same time, when you have people in the White House and in Congress who are as vociferous as they are on the issues of gay marriage, euthanasia, the death penalty et cetera, I do indeed wonder why the federal government hasn't interfered. (The Republicans in Congress are trying for certain, but they're trying to do it by changing the Constitution now - even though that's one power that is granted explicitly to the states through the ratification process.) Given all the rhetoric in addition to dearth of federal action here, I'd say it's not what Mencius would call a demonstration of 不为 (lack of will) but rather a demonstration of 不能 (lack of ability).
You seem to be forgetting, though, that the slave trade was a horse of a different colour from the practise of slavery itself, back in the day. The importation of slaves was banned in Virginia and some of the other Southern states actually before the Northern ones, but that was pre-Revolution. By the time the Civil War came along, the issue of the slave trade was long since gone. The issue at hand was chattel slavery itself, and had been for nigh on fifty years - the ban on the importation of slaves was no progress toward the dismantling of the institution itself, or at most negligible. It was an issue that hounded Congress like plague (and was so compared) for decades. Many solutions had been explored - Lincoln had actually offered the plantation owners to buy off all the slaves at their market price, and he was refused.
But it was an age of prophecy. Like the time of Moses and like the time of Martin Luther King, Jr., it was a time of iniquity and a time of identity crisis. It was a time when you had these tremendous, as Bob Hill, dean of Boston University's Marsh Chapel put it, 'wake-up calls' to the nation. At that time, slavery was not an issue that would, or even could, be put off any longer, that John Brown proved with his (in)famous raid. It was a time when the standard 'no answer' to the abolition of slavery was not a good enough answer to the abolition of slavery. Blacks were fleeing the South left, right and centre like never before, and more and more whites became disenfranchised with the system (even in the South) that exploited them almost as much as it did the slaves. I agree this far - it meant the death of a way of life. But it was a way of life that had been dying for decades before; it was a way of life that deserved to die.
I honestly think that by trying to preserve or prolong that way of life (and there's no point in denying that's what they were trying to do - some might say slavery, others might say economics, yet others might say culture), the Confederacy doomed itself to failure from day zero. It's the second law of thermodynamics: you can't force an untenable system into tenability. In the end, look what happened. The Confederacy won most of the critical battles, but wasted what infrastructure it had, wound up declaring martial law on its own citizens even as the Union ground it down by attrition.
By the way, I must say that I resent immensely your characterisation of everyone who saw the Northern effort to preserve the Union as necessary as being a brainwashed, indoctrinated 'revisionist'. I may just be a philoso
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The connection to state rights is that individual states organize and mostly fund their Guard units. The Guard units are made up of men & women from that state. Those men and women join for the most part with the intention of serving their community, neighbors and state. For the federals to take control of that unit, send them overseas & refuse to allow them to come home is a gross infringement on states rights, and individual rights.
I am well aware of the difference between the trading of slaves, and the institution of slavery itself. My point was that the prohibition of the importation of slaves was the first step toward the demise of the institution.
Yes, slavery was an ongoing issue between the North & South. Religious and regional differences made it a heated issue with neither side able to see the others arguements and causing both to take resistance to their way of thinking as a personal affront. Historians, travelers from abroad, and many others noted the differences in geography, religion, culture, perception, demeanor, etc between North & South to be so profound as to liken to two to being different nations. In many ways they were not far off the mark.
Lincoln's offer to purchase slaves from the South still did not address the issue of the sudden vacuum of labor were the South to accept the offer. Money does not get fields harvested, seed planted, or freight moved. There was simply not enough people in the South at that time to manage the agrarian economy without slave labor.
I agree that slavery deserved to die, but I disagree strongly that the Southern way of life deserved death.
I do not think that slavery doomed the South to death. It was the industrial might, larger poplulation, and naval blockade of the North that defeated the South. A moral issue like slavery did not somehow play into the defeat of the CSA.
Quote:
By the way, I must say that I resent immensely your characterisation of everyone who saw the Northern effort to preserve the Union as necessary as being a brainwashed, indoctrinated 'revisionist'.
I do not recall stating or even insinuating that anyone who believed in the Union was "brainwashed". That is not what I said or intended. If that is what you wish to deduce from my posts, then that is your decision, though it is erroneous. I am not responsible for your inaccurate deduction of my beliefs or statements. Your beliefs on slavery, it's importance in factors leading to the War, and whether the demise of a nation was necessary to end it, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. By that token I am entitled to disagree with you and maintain my own opinions. I will defend your right to your beliefs, even if I myself do not agree or support them. Call me idealistic that way.
__________________________________________
Holding the line since December '02!
"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."
Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:
http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/
http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org
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Whoops! Not your post - scratch that last comment, at least insofar as it applies to you. With a topic this long and coming so late to the forum, no wonder I get the authors mixed up. Sorry about that.
But while I disagree with you about the value of the antebellum Southern way of life in relation to the value of the lives of those who were exploited by it, you're definitely to express your opinion and I will also defend your right to do so. I'd like to let you know that I appreciate the fact that you would do the same for me.
But I am entirely in agreement with you about the National Guard issue. I'm just saying that 'states' rights' isn't the only thing at stake, or even the most important thing, as far as the National Guard is concerned. My dad had a grad student that wanted to join the RING, but given the current climate and the 'backdoor draft' decided against it in the end. But it seems that this administration is willing to take any liberty, cross any line, break any rule in pursuit of its foreign agenda - call me a cynic, but it doesn't surprise me that they're misusing the National Guard, especially now that they've legalised torture and denied basic legal rights to American citizens.
Also, it was not slavery that doomed the Confederacy to lose the war per se, but (and here I'm engaging in a kind of what-if history, so this is merely speculation on my part) given the public opinion within the Confederacy during the later years of the war and the actions of the CSA government in response (including declaration of martial law in several regions), it's no great leap of imagination to think there might have been a longer, more bitter civil war afterwards even if the Confederacy had won.
And didn't you say that it was less that six percent of the CSA population that owned slaves? If so, there must have been plenty of free labour, white and black. And given the compensation for the slaves that were freed, the southern plantation owners would be able to hire the work they got for free for at least long enough to regain an economic equilibrium. Sure, there would have been a short-term hit in the profit-margin, but the economy need not have collapsed as hard as it did during the Reconstruction. It's unfortunate that the state governments were so short-sighted and lacking in creativity that they couldn't have found a better way.
And I think we're still living with some of the effects of the culture split today. The South is still largely rural, largely poorly educated and largely xenophobic, and what I call 'big religion' has taken advantage of all three to take over and pervert what noble elements of Southern culture there were. Like I said, I'd gladly take the commercial cynics in the North and on the West Coast over the religious fanatics in the South. I'm a God-fearing man myself, and I grieve to see what the advent of the televangelist has done to the churches in the South. It's definitely nothing like what Jesus would have wanted for his followers.
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
I do not think that slavery doomed the South to death. It was the industrial might, larger poplulation, and naval blockade of the North that defeated the South. A moral issue like slavery did not somehow play into the defeat of the CSA.
I must disagree; The moral issue of slavery did indeed contribute to the Confederate's defeat; it was their refusal to foreswear their "peculiar institution" that caused European powers to deny recognition of the CSA as a legitimate nation. That lack of overseas allies--and the financial/logistical support they could have provided--was a major factor in the south's loss.
While slavery was not the only issue in the civil war, or even the primary cause of it, it was therefore a major factor in the failure of the Confederate cause.
And frankly, it deserved to be. Minus this issue, there was much to be said for the Confederacy. And the North certain wasn't a nation of angels when it came to human rights. But in the end, it was their failure to reject chattel slavery that doomed the antebellum way of life.
"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn
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Slavery is a funny topic. In America, when we discuss slavery, we refer to the shameful kidnapping and selling of Africans here in America. Americans do like to walk around with our white hats, but do let's remember that we profited quite nicely from the slave trade, and from having the slave labor to work the plantations.
But are Africans the only ones with such a cross to bear? hardly. Where do you Suppose Shaquille O'Neill got his irish last name from? It was common practice to take irish slaves, who were politely referred to as indentured servants, to the Carribean islands to cut sugar cane, alongside kidnapped Africans. How long do you suppose it took for some irish lad, knowing he would never see the auld sod again, to realize just how good those brown-skinned girls were looking?
Slavery is a human stain, certainly not a southern one. no culture has ever had their hands entirely clean, except perhaps those who were being enslaved.
Simon: "Were there any Feds?"
mal: "No, no Feds, just an honest brawl between folk."
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Well, there's no use in trying to tell Purplebelly your opinion. His/hers is apparently the only one that matters and the only one that is right. It is also apparent that he/she is very proud of their vocabulary skills because they like to put at least three big words that nobody uses in conversational speech in every sentence. Good for you for picking up a few books on your own when our centralized public school system is designed to fail.
Maybe he/she will be singing a different tune when he/she's working at WalMart, buying WalMart clothes because it's the only store that sells clothes, using the credit on his/her RFID chip "Real ID", which also doubles as a drivers license and passport, and living in a cashless society so every single purchase he/she makes is catalogued (just as the Bible said we would one day, not that I claim to be religious by any means).
Keep buying all of the foreign merchandise we consume in mass quantities in our throw-away society and tell yourself that WallStreet and NY are any better than your evil South for allowing third world exploitation and slavery. Like I said before... just because they're not black and just because they aren't slaving away in your back yard doesn't mean that we haven't enslaved countless more people to preserve the "American Way". I think your heart is in the right place, but your head is up your ass.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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