IMDB comments
POSTED BY: Fireflythemovie
UPDATED: Sunday, February 8, 2004 06:28
VIEWED: 26013
PAGE 6 of 11
Sources.
people on the net are always yakking about sources.
I'm smart. I can read. I am able, you see, to form the right conclusion without being spoon fed. However, since you seem to think that the support of documents and/or PHD's who agree with me is necessary, here are some few that might light up your dark nights of the soul.
THe U. S. Constitution.
South Carolina Congressonal Debate on Secession
Constitutional Law for a Changing America- Lee Epstein/ Thoas Walker
The Articles of Confederation
Anything by James McPherson
Any speech by John C. Calhoun
Anything by Shelby Foote
There. That should keep the kids busy while grown folks is talking.
The Price of Knowledge is Knowing.
Audrid Dax
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I take exception to your comment on children and adults. Of course if you want to resort to name calling, you only show your own level of maturity.
Seems the adults were talking until you showed up w/ your "details" that only you seem to be aware of, and per your own admission are formed from something other than history.
You see, I majored in history and very likely own more books on the subject than you. I asked for sources on your wild accusations that all Confederates are "scum" and that they are "damned". You have failed to do anything but list some legal documents any high school student is famaliar with, and bandied names of some die hard secessionists. Hardly evidence of your claims.
Nice try though. Better luck next time.
Oh, and
"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
I take exception to your comment on children and adults. Of course if you want to resort to name calling, you only show your own level of maturity.
Take exception all you like. With the exception of a single poster I've found the analysis of the issue on the Pro-Confederate side (chilling that there even is such a thing) to be thin and illformed. And ill informed.
Quote:
Seems the adults were talking until you showed up w/ your "details" that only you seem to be aware of, and per your own admission are formed from something other than history.
Sigh. Another common 'net response. It's clear I know the material in question by the statements I make. Only those without their own ability to collate the data appropriately themsleves fall back on mere regurgitation of what others wrote. I am fully capable of collating the requisite data appropriately myself.
I don't merely parrot what somebody wrote in some book and I don't limit myself to reading or assimilating only those texts which support my original thinking.
The bulk of the things I cited for you– by no means the totality of my own immersion in the subject or even a significant fraction– were ORIGINAL SOURCE documents. You can't pass those off as having been "spun" by me or somehow not central to the issue.
Grapple. Or go in defeat.
Quote:
You see, I majored in history and very likely own more books on the subject than you.
Uhh. Yeah. I'm fairly certain I could TEACH your college level history class. So what? This is not about parchment and never was. Use your own sober brain without the emotional crap and you'll see, objectively, what's what.
Anything you can't deal with beyond that point is your own lookout.
Quote:
I asked for sources on your wild accusations that all Confederates are "scum" and that they are "damned".
as Wash: God. Oh, dear God, no.
"Scum," I'll grant you, is my own assessment. I concede that point. Whoopee. Was there ever any doubt?
"Damned" OTOH is a common turn of phrase without any religous connotation. It simply means they took the side of evil whether they admitted to it later or not.
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You have failed to do anything but list some legal documents any high school student is famaliar with, and bandied names of some die hard secessionists.
Really? I wasn't aware that the complete works of Shelby Foote or the Masters level text on the evolution of Constitutional Law was High School reading these days. What school is that? I better get my kids in now.
And, frankly, if more of you had actually READ the Articles of Confederation, this "debate" would never have got going.
Quote:
Hardly evidence of your claims.
Evidence of my "claims?" Hm. Have I said something which can be disputed beyond the conclusion that the Confederates were vermin? (Granted that's a generalization and somewhat of a harsh description but then the vast weight of – what's the word– um- oh yeah- evidence supports me. There's all that enslaving and seceding and killing people, see.)
Quote:
Nice try though. Better luck next time.
Back atcha, baby. Though it'll take a lot more than luck if current performance is any indication.
As an easy primer, History Major, you might want to check out the written companion to KEN BURNS' THE CIVIL WAR. Or, if the tome is too heavy, just rent and watch.
In it you will find letters written by Confederate soldiers, their wives and children at home and others. Not saying what's IN those letters but, you know, take a look.
Despite their bankrupt worldveiw, some of them are quite beautiful.
Too bad thy took that left turn at Human Decency.
The Price of Knowledge is Knowing.
Audrid Dax
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Everyone was scum at the time. All Americans thought that it was perfectly OK to subjugate others. Lincoln is a good example, he didn't believe in slavery for religious reasons... but he never threatened the slave trade in the south until a few years into the Civil War.
Soooo... in my humble opinion; the Calvinistic guilt of America may have given the President a sudden surge of morality in difficult times, or he simply needed more soldiers and had to have a real reason to convince people to go and get killed for reasons other than stopping what amounts to a massive and greedy land grab.
Not that I'd be so simple as to say 'the Confeds were evil' or 'the Union walks funny'.
Wow, funny but I didn't even need to watch PBS to come up with that answer lads. Sorry... no footnotes. 
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Calvinist Guilt is an oxymoron.
The Price of Knowledge is Knowing.
Audrid Dax
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^^^ rubbish. Please try not to make knee-jerk posts. :)
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^^^
Oh, you big silly.
The Calvinist Doctrine is clear.
Man is Fallen. Tainted forever by Original Sin. Nothing He does in this world, no act or confession, can change his Fallen state. He is Irredeamable except by God Himself.
Only God's Grace, doled out only to those He deems deserving according to some criteria known only to Him, can clean the soul.
So there's no room for guilt. Either God pulls your number out of the box or it's the Hot Place. Nothing you do in your life matters to God in the Calvinist veiw. He only likes you for Heaven or not.
America is primarily a Protestant nation, true, but it was the Calvinism of the South which allowed for Slavery in the first place.
Using a mistranslated/understood passage from the OT referring to the mark of Cain and his descendants, coupled with the basic Calvinist notion that, if you were placed in a degraded state in life (slavery, poverty, being female, etc.) it was because God wanted you there, they justified the generational abuse and degredation African Slaves.
It is a more streamlined version of the Hindu caste system which, as you know, places reincaranted souls in the approriate social class based upon the karmic debt accumulated in past lives. Untouchables at the bottom, Brahmin I believe, at the top.
American Calvinists just cut out the middle castes.
A similar baseline notion is at the heart of the concept of Manifest Destiny which, as we know, the original occupants of North America were so thrilled to have introduced to them by their European cousins.
Lincoln may well have suffered from a sense of Christian guilt but, I guarantee you, it wasn't due to the Calvinist interpretation.
But thank you for adding another ripple to this fascinating discussion.
The Price of Knowledge is Knowing.
Audrid Dax
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Yea... but it's not an oxymoron is it?
Americans are often described, being a reactionary and overly religious fundamental folk, as Calvinistic in thier belief systems. That is, all that Calin crapola you mention above is buried within the American personality.
Americans are often seen as being fundementalists.
But anyho'... I feel very off topic right now. Go start a thread and define your arguments if you're so keen on academic minutia.
Now... the imdb needs to be hacked by a few browncoats ... 
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No sense arguing w/ RJ Ghoulman. He or she will only insult you and start the name calling and question your intelligence.
Funny how the self appointed intellectual wannabes question everyone elses intelligence and claims. LOL
I refuse to rise to the weak bait anymore. I have better things to discuss and far more capable peers to debate with on this forum.
"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."
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Hey, it's a nice little flame war. After all - ranting is the water with which the Net flows.
Besides... this BS needs a thread dedicated to the Civil War and the 'Reconstruction' if only to keep our minds occupied with actual history.
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