I don't support Bush because...
POSTED BY: Dayve
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 04:58
VIEWED: 9294
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USMCHellraiser - I don't question the efforts of the soldiers on the ground at all,
but is seems to me the lives of Iraqis must have taken a turn for the worse if over 60 percent of them now believe it is okay to attack American soldiers.
I don't believe that's a failing of the military but of our administration. I have a hard time accepting 'better medical care' as something that offsets the much higher level of deaths in the country
Torture and rape going on in their cities before or after the war started? Again, I'm sure those of you there were doing everything you could, but your post doesn't convince me that things are better now than they were. They sound a lot worse.
.....
That comma comment was pretty horrible. Hopefully Bush will one day be remembered as an imapropriate colon.
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the motives for us to go into Iraq are skeptical at best. lets face the facts, Iraq had no alqaeda connection, no WMDs and no WMD program.. most of the 9/11 hijackers were saudi arabian. IMO we cant even prove that alqaeda was solely behind 9/11, not only because of the sheer magnititude of lies and secrecy on behalf of this administration and the pentagon, but because the FBI itself admits that they have "no hard evidence" linking OSB to 9/11; i personally think that the central banks are funding everything, the terrorists and the war on terror
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Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
USMCHellraiser - I don't question the efforts of the soldiers on the ground at all,
but is seems to me the lives of Iraqis must have taken a turn for the worse if over 60 percent of them now believe it is okay to attack American soldiers.
I don't believe that's a failing of the military but of our administration. I have a hard time accepting 'better medical care' as something that offsets the much higher level of deaths in the country
Torture and rape going on in their cities before or after the war started? Again, I'm sure those of you there were doing everything you could, but your post doesn't convince me that things are better now than they were. They sound a lot worse.
.....
That comma comment was pretty horrible. Hopefully Bush will one day be remembered as an imapropriate colon.
Well, without arguing, most if not all of the people who have never been there and never spoke to an Iraqi think we're stupid for being there, yet I know literally thousands I'm not kidding thousands of people that have been there and support what we do. So it comes down to a question of believeing people who are paid to report crisis and horror (the media), or a rational, literate, injured man who joined as an adult and didn't need to be validated or defined by an association with the military.
I wasn't just a footsoldier infantryman by the way and if it matters, I was our company translator. If you speak any kind of Arabic at all (most of our military doesn't and are not completely encouraged to learn it, since they would be able to express themselves however they saw fit-like after a firefight, when emotions are high) you are capable of a better level of rapport with the people there. They complain a lot to you about things that you cannot control, but that's understandable. I think we would do the same. I'm sure it happened during Katrina, even though I wasn't even in the country when that happened, and didn't get the scope of it until we returned.
The murder/rape issue in their country is a weird one- would you rather live in a slum in Detroit as a white male or Live in Police-State Germany in 1939 even if you weren't Jewish?
Saddam had a good grip on rampant murder and crime probably, so it might have seemed more peaceful, but if we just vaporized every city we encountered any sort of resistance in instead of risking our Soldier/Marine/Sailor's lives by doing it house-to-house we would have the same kind of control or more to the point, Fear-induced Iron Grip.
All I know is that I was thanked by Iraqis in their own language for being there, and I eavesdropped a lot, since most people there would never have guessed I could piece out what they were saying.
A LOT of Iraqi police(or ICDC, or IA, or ISF, et al.) working with the U.S. get killed every day because they are working with us to help Iraq. Why do you think more keep lining up to become police the next day? Please don't demean it by trying to make it a self-serving thing, or based out of ignorance.
An average everyday Iraqi could re-wire my entire house's electrical system by the way, and do it faster than you'd think. They also have a great sense of community and they look after each other really well. They're just living in a part of the world that bears no resemblance to anything a person who grew up here in the states and worse if they have never lived anywhere else could imagine.
By the way, if I'm not wanted here, my bad. I just thought that you all might value info from someone who was actually over there.
And, by the way- even though I am injured from something that happened over there, and I'll never be a terro on the Football field again, I would continue to go over there until I thought there was no one over ther who wanted me. WI wish I could tell you more about some of the people that we fought over there, but no one's lying when they say that foreign militants are attacking our people and Iraqis there.
Our presence is like the scent on a bu
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Quote:
Originally posted by USMCHellraiser:
So it comes down to a question of believing people who are paid to report crisis and horror (the media), or a rational, literate, injured man who joined as an adult...
Thanks for your post, but sorry, it's more complicated than that.
You believe what you want. It doesn't change the fact that invading Iraq was a huge mistake. All the reasons for invading turned out to be based on lies, or GIANT errors. It's not okay to keep making up new reasons to be there. And there's thousands of soldiers who went to Iraq and disagree with you.
Mission Rejected: U.S. Soldiers Who Say No to Iraq
http://www.amazon.com/Mission-Rejected-U-S-Soldiers-Iraq/dp/1933392045
"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."
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Ryan- your post has me perplexed. Poll after poll in Iraq tells the story that the vast majority of Iraqis- somewhere between 70-85% - want us gone pronto. There are soldiers who tell other stories... that kids smile to your face, and throw stones (or worse- shoot) when your back is turned.
So how do we account for the discrepancy between the polls/ news reports, and your account? Do Iraqis like to be severely pessimistic to pollsters and more optimistic with American soldiers? Did you get a chance to talk in-depth with "the guy on the street" or just with Iraqi Army/ Police recruits? Were you always in uniform? How much of the violence do you think is due to foreigners? Where were you stationed? Do you think it's typical or Iraq as a whole? Is there a difference between what men and women say?
There must be reasons why we hear such wildly divergent stories and ways to figure out why they're so different. If you could give us some insight about why your experience is so vastly different from other reports I'd be very happy to hear.
---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Quote:
Originally posted by USMCHellraiser:
I agree with a lot f stuff people are worried about (mostly the danger of dictatorship) but polite request:
WE did not have a military failure in Iraq, and Definitely not in Afghanistan.
Your quite right. What I should have said was a policy failure. Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa. I'll edit the post, because the last thing I want to do is give the impression I don't support the military. I do. I just don't support this administration.
The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation.
-Bertrand Russell
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He's a war criminal
He's a traitor
He broke his oath of office
(by FAILING to uphold the US constitution)
That enough?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:Quote:
Originally posted by USMCHellraiser:
So it comes down to a question of believing people who are paid to report crisis and horror (the media), or a rational, literate, injured man who joined as an adult...
Thanks for your post, but sorry, it's more complicated than that.
It doesn't change the fact that invading Iraq was a huge mistake.*
All the reasons for invading turned out to be based on lies, or GIANT errors.**
It's not okay to keep making up new reasons to be there. And there's thousands of soldiers who went to Iraq and disagree with you.***
"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."
* If you don't mind me asking- why? What was the "mistake"?
** Slavery was ended for reasons other than the freedom of Africans. Does that mean it was wrong?
*** I haven't read that book. I only live with and work with 2,500 Marines and Sailors (just in my Battalion, let alone Division).
It's easy to think that we shouldn't be there- when the people back home are telling you that they don't support it. When your friends and strangers are saying you were wrong to be a part of something because they don't agree with it, it's not unheard of for people to succumb to the impression that they were wrong.
To be honest, I don't know myself if I would have the internal strength to keep my earned opinion if my family and friends were all against it without knowing. Fortunately, my firends and family asked me what the experience was, they didn't attack me or my beliefs based off of what they 'heard someone say', etc.
Lastly, I'd be hard pressed to believe that the author interviewed "Thousands" of anybody. Also, do you guys actually think that reporters or journalist go looking for Iraqis or servicemen that support the situation there? Seriously?
And, in the name of democracy, if you took a poll of serviceman or previous serviecman who don't approve of the war, start with people who didn't run from the idea of a deployment to come up with the idea.
I'm not going to lie to any of you- i And, there are still more servicemen who would say they don't want to go, but they believe in it.
Look- it's hard to look the love of your life in the eye and tell her that leaving her alone for almost a year is "right". I know someone personally who went twice and went UA (ie- AWOL)instead of going three times. Was it because he didn't agree with policy? Hell no, it was because he met "The One". I understand wholeheartedly why he did it, but he was still wrong. And I hope that there never comes a day where we are called to go to war with a real threat, because in a culture that allows the men and women who are charged with defending our families to become "Conscientious Objectors" because they are afraid to die, and watch someone else's young son go to take their place, and applaud them for their "willingness to stand up for what's right", we are going to get beaten, and more lives will be lost, because we as a country have become cowards.
God Bless America, because "she" needs it,
Ryan
"...let's not ruin an otherwise pleasant day with unnecessary bloodshed..."
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Quote:
Originally posted by misbehaven:
The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation.
-Bertrand Russell
Well, I hope that mankind does find a way to redeem itself. But funny thing, that is one of the things I found smart about "Firefly". I don't see it happening in 500 years, or more.
Good quote though, and something to think about...
"...let's not ruin an otherwise pleasant day with unnecessary bloodshed..."
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USMChellraiser -
I don't think I, or anybody who questions your conclusions would rather you not be posting to the board. Most of us are genuinely curious. I'm not in Iraq and I don't have any first hand information on what's going on there.
I appreciate your compassion for these human beings and I believe you and most of our armed services believe they are helping the Iraqi people.
Still, the evidence doesn't show it. Your anecdotal experiences are not lost on me, but as Sygm said, they are outside the range of the information we are getting. Even while I include your experience, it is an outlier.
And Yes, I seriously believe the media is looking hard for good stories on Iraq. big companies pay media advertising. Big companies that have stake in the war even own the media...case-in-point, GE.
News is not a cash crop. It's what it sells that bbrings in the dough.
As to your question, "what was the mistake?" - the "mistake" was Bush's incorrect declaration that we must go into Iraq because it had weapons of Mass destruction. Only when they couldn't find any did they try to make the whole invasion about spreading democracy.
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