Male and Female Imponderables- real wild children

POSTED BY: msg
UPDATED: Friday, October 6, 2006 22:31
VIEWED: 18065
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RUGBUG

Monday, October 2, 2006 9:46 PM

Naming is a sign of ownership. When a women takes her husband's name, it is declaring that she is now "his." I think that is often the feminist issue with taking the man's name.

For me, however, it has more to do with the fact that I've had this name for a really long time. It is part of who I am. I think if I had married young I wouldn't feel the same way. But I didn't, so I do.

I have another friend who dropped her middle name and her maiden name became her middle name.

There are many creative ways to maintain your family history and more power to whatever someone chooses. Differences are what makes the world an interesting place, afterall.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

ZEEK

Monday, October 2, 2006 9:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by marina:
Quote:
Originally posted by msg:

I have never really understood the feminist thing about not giving up your name ( which as james pointed out is really your dad's name) and if you use your mother's birth name then you are really using her father's name and so on. So it doesn't seem to matter one way or another you're using a guy's name...

Keep in mind, however, that there is also a difference between a father and a husband. You came from your father, you're a part of him, he raised you, whatever (hence the traditional naming system). When you marry, the idea is that you take your husband's name to indicate you are now a part of HIS family. It's not so much whether it's a man's name or a woman's name, but the family you "belong" to.

That's the idea, anyways.

So, I'd just rather belong to my family and my parents.

EDIT: I know this leaves the door wide open for "what about your children, they'll be a part of your husband?" arguments, but I don't really want to argue about it :) So this is the last one on this subject

All I want to make sure about is that you did say you'll let your children choose what they want to use right? Because getting beaten up in gym class for the first 5 years of school because your grandpa wants you to have 3 last names is not going to sit well with a child. A.) he'll hate his grandpa (see: me and my stupid middle name) B.) he'll have issues over being bullied and C.) he'll be sure not to pass on the name to the next generation making it a bit of a waste in the first place. This chain obviously won't last very long anyway. If your children are female then it's going to start to get silly to try to have kids with 4 last names. Have you ever sat down and explained to your parents that passing on pearls of wisdom like MsG's grandma did for her could be a much more meaningful and lasting impression to leave on the world?

MARINA

Monday, October 2, 2006 10:00 PM

My preference - for instance, if I adopt children as a single mother - is for them to have the same four name arrangement my brother and I have. We've got our first names, our middle names (his middle name was my paternal grandfather's, mine was my paternal grandmother's - I'm not sure I would use family names) and both last names. It was never a problem "in gym class" or wherever, and it was certainly easier than having hyphenated disasters (I went to school with a Jason Eastwick-Haskell, and I don't even know his middle name!)

If that were to be the case, though, you're right. I wouldn't mind which name they chose to use or which name they chose to pass onto THEIR children.

God am I getting ahead of myself. Let's work on getting me a date before I think about grandkids

I'm very smart.

MINK

Monday, October 2, 2006 10:30 PM

Funny I have the totally traditional setup. Wife and two daughters with my last name. Things are just so darn simple when you can fit into society's molds! I revel in the freedom of being normal!

But enough horn tooting - this was all my wife's deal, I could live with whatever she chose. But she had already been married, so she didn't want to keep that, and she didn't want her birth name because her Dad leaves her kind of .

The thing is, if I had taken on my wife's name, or worse yet if the kids had, there would have been hell to pay with my parents and probably asserted other relatives too.

I knew a guy a number of years back who had assumed his wife's name after they flipped a coin at their wedding. Hippies. Sheesh.

It's okay to leave them to die.

ZEEK

Monday, October 2, 2006 10:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mink:
I knew a guy a number of years back who had assumed his wife's name after they flipped a coin at their wedding. Hippies. Sheesh.

Hmmmmm I had never really thought about taking someone else's name. Which normally seems fine until I thought about the person I'm crushing on lately. Her last name is just a first name...and a girl's first name at that. Just don't seem right. I have a feeling I'd be wandering around mumbling "Jayne ain't a girl" after a while.

Bah don't think it's really an issue. I don't hear wedding bells anytime soon.

TRAVELER

Monday, October 2, 2006 11:23 PM

Well if you get married there is no law saying you have to change your name. Each person can keep their own as far as I know. Of course each state has their own laws and some can be pretty strange. As for the children you have the boys take the fathers name and the girls take the mothers. If you have all boys or girls that may seem unfair so you could just take turns. Flip a coin for the first child and the alternate. But if the kids all want to have the same last name then your stuck. I suggest pillow cases stuffed with marshmellos and who is left standing can choose the family name. Are you getting the idea I'm single. And probably will stay that way.

Will stop rambling now
Traveler

TRISTAN

Tuesday, October 3, 2006 3:08 AM

Evening, imponderable-ers!
Sorry, this was 'moving weekend', so I did not have much time to play online. The good news is that the ex and all of her stuff are gone from my life and home! The bad news is that now I have to clean and rearrange the carnage left behind...

So, let's see what I've missed...huh, things that make a marriage good...
1-Repsect. I agree with that one completely.
2-Fidelity, both in body and emotions. Had a problem with that one recently.
3-Love of life.
4-Sense of humor.
5-A strong desire to have sex.

I may not be the best one to talk to about marriage right now...

NVG, I am also completely tired of the damn games. I would love to find someone that would rather not play them, and just get down to the brass tacks. It's simple, really...if there is a mutual attraction, it needs to be stated.

Marina, I'm going to try to read the rest of this thread, so if you have answered this, I'll try to remember to erase this...would you mind explaining the last name thing to me? Does this mean any children you give birth to, even if you are married, will carry your last name, and not that of your husband? Just need clarification on that...
-EDIT- Ok, read your answer. You might have a problem finding a male to go along with that caveat.

Ok, flirting games when both parties know the outcome are alright. I just meant the serious games where one partner is toying with the emotions of the other.

My house is on fire, what do I save? Oy. I have no idea. I have too much stuff to even think about...

I missed the sin thing...

Ok, it's bedtime, and I only got halfway through...I'll try to catch up later, but by then it will be too late!

______________________________________

WHITEFALL

Tuesday, October 3, 2006 5:33 AM

Well I'm back....

Hmm... marriage. Well I gotta say, I agree about the friend thing. I dont care what people say, I don't understand how you can love someone you don't ultimately LIKE. Just seems weird.

On the subject of last names, mine is not only hyphenated, but its... without a hyphen. So its like there was hyphen, but not! Exciting, aint it?

As far as i'm concerned, any kids I have will eitehr take one word of the last name like my cousins did, or they'll just have their mother's name. Would simplify things mucho. And as for taking a wife's name? I'd absolutely do it if she wanted/was willing. I'm not stranger to issues with names, and I wouldnt mind being confronted wtih "OMGWTF you took your wife's name?!" every time I tell someone. Meh. Gender equality: doesnt mean we should flip the previous tradition entirely, just that man and woman should just consider it case-by-case. And if you want metaphors about names and men owning women like that, read The Handmaid's Tale by Atwood, where all the handmaids are named after the man they serve. So their names are just Offred and Ofwarren and Ofglen. Scary stuff.

"But, these strong women characters?"

"Why aren't you asking 100 other guys why they don't write strong women characters?" -Joss Whedon.

"We take all the money we got saved right now, we could maybe buy a moderately sized gerbil." -Mal

PHOENIXROSE

Tuesday, October 3, 2006 6:26 AM

While I've not been married, I think the most important things for a long-lasting relationship would be respect, passion, communication, empathy, compatability, willingness to work past your own go se, and devotion. Pretty similar to what Ms G said, I guess.
As for specifics that I would want, definitely a sense of humor, a sense of sharing, a sense of depth, and absolute gluttony for touching! Yes, I realized that, when it comes to touching and being touched, I am, in fact, a glutton. And someone who can at least think. Seems like there's a bit of shaky ground when it comes to the smart guys, though. Even though I'm pretty smart myself, many of them have felt the need to talk down to me. I'm never puttin' up with that again, I tell ya!
I was thinking about games as I tried to get to sleep today. Here's the thing, my ex never had to work at getting me into bed, and didn't seem to have any problem pleasing me. Now at this point most men are saying "So, that's good right?" and I think it is, but I don't think he did. I didn't play any games about it. Didn't 'play hard to get' so to speak. Maybe I stopped being at all intriguing to him because of that.
I think that's fked up.
Games are dumb. Up-front is good, but so few people seem to actually feel that way. It's like they have a weird addiction in their brains to things not being easy.
Marina, I'm sorry to hear about your loss. But I envy you that you've had that. I want that.
As for name issues, I actually prefer my mother's last name and would want to give that to my kids. Weird, right? But if I met someone with a really nice last name (who I also loved and liked and respected of course) I wouldn't say no to giving them that. I'm never changing my name, though. I don't like the conotations of that (please don't argue with me, I know not everyone sees it as an 'ownership' thing, but I do). I got my father's last name, my (half) brother got my mother's last name. Weird, yes?
Oddly enough, most guys I have dates haven't been overly fond of their last names and probably wouldn't insist on passing them on.
My house is on fire, I save my computer if I can. And my journals. My wand and maybe more sacred pieces of jewelry. Things that can't be replaced.
Mink, of course copulation is necessary. I've said it before, I'll say it again, if you ain't touching, you ain't lovers.
Huh, the ownershpip thing was brought up. Well, shiny!
That whole thing is the problem I have with 'marriage'. I have no problem with a bond, pledging yourself to someone, it's a beautiful thing, but its histroy makes me just a little sick.
Anyway, my mother never changed her name because she didn't want the hassle. And, as I mentioned, she has a very nice last name. 'Hanley' means 'high meadow' I think. And it's very pretty! So, no changing for her. No, you do not have to change your name to get married.
Fidelity is a good one Tristan! I didn't really ever have a problem with that, but ooooooh, I think some people I dated sure did! Bastards.
Handmaid's Tale made me a little sick.
And look, end of thread! Holy crap I missed a lot!

http://www.bigdamnthankyou.com - show Universal your gratitude!

We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think. When the mind is pure, joy follows like a shadow in sunlight. - Gautama Siddharta

SPACEANJL

Tuesday, October 3, 2006 10:10 AM

'The Handmaid's Tale' is one of the few books I have ever thrown across a room.

I have a mix of names at the moment. I use my married name for most things because it's easier to spell and pronounce than the one I had before. But when I publish, I may well use my original name. It's distinctive. I don't have any problem with changing my name. And kids are not an issue at present.

I did a whole paper on the origins of marriage - women, marriage and property. Interesting, but it can make you very angry very quickly.

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