Faith and Reason

POSTED BY: misbehaven
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 4, 2006 04:36
VIEWED: 7253
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MISBEHAVEN

Sunday, October 1, 2006 1:48 PM

The following are excerpts from Sam Harris' book: Letter to a Christian Nation (66-68). So far it is proving to be a very interesting read. I am also looking forward to reading Richard Dawkins' new book: The God Delusion. Too many books to read, and too little time to read them.

I realize that this subject will probably anger some people on this board, but it is a topic that continually fascinates me. Personally, it seems to me as if the line between faith and madness is a rather thin one. I guess I just think that the world could use a little more reason and a lot less religious rhetoric.

"The conflict between science and religion is reducible to simple fact of human cognition and discourse; either a person has good reasons for what he believes, or he does not. If there were good reasons to believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, or that Muhammad flew to heaven on a winged horse, these beliefs would necessarily form part of our rational description of the universe. Everyone recognizes that to rely upon "faith" to decide specific questions of historical fact is ridiculous—that is, until the conversation turns to the origin of books like the Bible and the Koran, to the resurrection of Jesus, to Muhammad's conversation with the archangel Gabriel, or to any other religious dogma. It is time that we admitted that faith is nothing more than the license religious people give one another to keep believing when reasons fail.

While believing strongly, without evidence, is considered a mark of madness or stupidity in any other area of our lives, faith in God still has immense prestige in our society. Religion is the one area of our discourse where it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about. It is telling that this aura of nobility extends only to those faiths that still have many subscribers. Anyone caught worshipping Poseidon, even at sea, will be thought insane.

Truth be told, I now receive e-mails of protest from people who claim, in all apparent earnestness, to believe that Poseidon and the other gods of Greek mythology are real."

"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

SIGMANUNKI

Sunday, October 1, 2006 3:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by misbehaven:

"The conflict between science and religion is reducible to simple fact of human cognition and discourse;

This actually only holds in the current climate AND is only primarily in the US (and Canada to a great lesser degree). There is no other large stronghold of fundamentalism outside of North America.

Also, my wife has the wonderful magazine from the 50's (60's?) that goes over how science and religion do NOT conflict and that there is NO problem. I should also mention that it is a US publication (I can get the details of it if you want).

I find it sad that such proof exists that our reason and intellectual processes have gone back so very much.

*sigh*

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

CITIZEN

Sunday, October 1, 2006 3:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Also, my wife has the wonderful magazine from the 50's (60's?) that goes over how science and religion do NOT conflict and that there is NO problem. I should also mention that it is a US publication (I can get the details of it if you want).

It tends to be Religion that attempts to crush science, rather than the other way around. Science just does what it does, then because it doesn't further whatever religions particular view you get funde nuts going out of the way to get rid of science because science attacked them.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

MISBEHAVEN

Sunday, October 1, 2006 4:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

This actually only holds in the current climate AND is only primarily in the US (and Canada to a great lesser degree). There is no other large stronghold of fundamentalism outside of North America.

I agree that the largest stronghold of religious fundamentalism (at least Christian fundamentalism) exists in the U.S., but I'm not entirely sure that there are no other areas in the world where Christian fundamentalism thrives. Africa comes most immediately to mind; Christian fundamentalism is growing quite rapidly there.

Quote:
Also, my wife has the wonderful magazine from the 50's (60's?) that goes over how science and religion do NOT conflict and that there is NO problem. I should also mention that it is a US publication (I can get the details of it if you want).

If it's not too much trouble, I'd be very interested in having more information on the magazine. This is an area, as I previously mentioned, that I find quite interesting, and I always try to read from multiple points of view.

Call upon God, but row away from the rocks.
-Hunter S. Thompson

SIGMANUNKI

Sunday, October 1, 2006 5:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Citizen:

It tends to be Religion that attempts to crush science, rather than the other way around. Science just does what it does, then because it doesn't further whatever religions particular view you get funde nuts going out of the way to get rid of science because science attacked them.

Very true.

Quote:
Originally posted by misbehaven:
Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
This actually only holds in the current climate AND is only primarily in the US (and Canada to a great lesser degree). There is no other large stronghold of fundamentalism outside of North America.

I agree that the largest stronghold of religious fundamentalism (at least Christian fundamentalism) exists in the U.S., but I'm not entirely sure that there are no other areas in the world where Christian fundamentalism thrives. Africa comes most immediately to mind; Christian fundamentalism is growing quite rapidly there.

Well you got me there; Africa certainly is a problem in this regard. So, I'll now confine this comment to the western world.

Quote:
Originally posted by misbehaven:

Quote:
Also, my wife has the wonderful magazine from the 50's (60's?) that goes over how science and religion do NOT conflict and that there is NO problem. I should also mention that it is a US publication (I can get the details of it if you want).

If it's not too much trouble, I'd be very interested in having more information on the magazine. This is an area, as I previously mentioned, that I find quite interesting, and I always try to read from multiple points of view.

The wife and I don't live in the same city at the moment. But, I called her and she said it was Life magazine from the early 50's. She's going to look for it when she gets home from work and I'll hopefully have something more specific then.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

RUE

Sunday, October 1, 2006 7:29 PM

This goes along with my deifnition of 'faith' - which is that which you believe - in the absense of proof or the the presence of disproof. If I remember correctly CTS thought that that definition shouldn't be used. HK thought that the word was too divisive and wanted to use the word 'trust'.

But 'faith' is the basis of fundamentalist religion. You can't get around it.

ROCKETJOCK

Sunday, October 1, 2006 7:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by misbehaven:

Truth be told, I now receive e-mails of protest from people who claim, in all apparent earnestness, to believe that Poseidon and the other gods of Greek mythology are real."

Fair enough. I'm a born-again Pagan. I believe in all the Gods--and none of them.

Gods are symbols, each of one or more aspects of an infinite mystery. Our small human minds can no more understand the whole than a teacup can contain the Ocean Sea.

And even those who claim monotheism, I notice, divide their deity into trinities, or dualities, to try and rationalize the inevitable contradictions.

As for faith and reason--they are the shoes on your feet. You'll travel further and faster with both, than with either alone.

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

ANTIMASON

Sunday, October 1, 2006 9:23 PM

its easy for us, in the 21st century, with the luxury of all of our modern advances..to set back and play arm-chair quarterback, and denegrate people who existed thousands of years before our own existence.. and say that they were dillusional, ignorant savages with no understanding of our origins; is that what you all are saying? cause im not willing to go that far.. and thank God their are still some impartial scientists and knowledge seekers who are willing to investigate what is actually known about our earliest origins

would it not be foolish to throw away what should be considered historical evidence.. that crosses continents and shares similar archetypes, such as a universal flood, a super human intervention, and a greater purpose and destiny of mankind? surely you recognize the spiritual messages of these cultures and what they were trying to convey?

besides that, you deny that mankind is anything more than an intelligent beast; who is merely more evolved then the closest of kin mammal. its clear to me that we have been given a 'gift' or curse, a consciousness unlike any other species; which should be obvious, since we can create beyond our physical environment; we can manifest thoughts; and we can choose a lifestyle or worldview of our choice; no other species on earth have this luxury!

in Job it says

"but ask the animals, and they will teach you, or the birds of the air, and they will tell you; or seek to the earth, and it will teach you, or let the fish of the sea inform you. which of all these does not know that the hand of the Lord has done this?"

i think thats a profound question; what is it about mankind that allows us to exist contrary to nature and its patters? why is man so defiant of nature.. yet other species are destined the fate of their environments? i dont believe science has or will ever have the tools to answer these questions; yet the bible does, as it says that Man is in a fallen state, out of touch with God, and denying his existence

science is only as good as its methods of measurement, which vary(aswell as the results), and can only test physical, reproducable data.. all of which God and the essence of spirituality are illusive too

i would like for you to consider this information, and what it eludes to, because it makes a good case as to how Darwin(which is what you specifically mean by reason) is in many ways a repackaged occult(mystical) belief, also FAITH BASED

http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/Ascendancy.htm http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/Ascendancy2.htm

“The older dictators fell because they could never supply their subjects with enough bread, enough circuses, enough miracles, and mysteries. Under a scientific dictatorship, education will really work' with the result that most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution. There seems to be no good reason why a thoroughly scientific dictatorship should ever be overthrown.”

- Huxley, Brave New World Revisited, 116
(Huxley being one of Darwins mentors)

KANEMAN

Sunday, October 1, 2006 9:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:
Originally posted by misbehaven:

"The conflict between science and religion is reducible to simple fact of human cognition and discourse;

This actually only holds in the current climate AND is only primarily in the US (and Canada to a great lesser degree). There is no other large stronghold of fundamentalism outside of North America.

Also, my wife has the wonderful magazine from the 50's (60's?) that goes over how science and religion do NOT conflict and that there is NO problem. I should also mention that it is a US publication (I can get the details of it if you want).

I find it sad that such proof exists that our reason and intellectual processes have gone back so very much.

*sigh*

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

You never met anyone from Latin America, The Middle East, or India I guess. America is non-religious compared to these places.

SEVENPERCENT

Sunday, October 1, 2006 11:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:

“The older dictators fell because they could never supply their subjects with enough bread, enough circuses, enough miracles, and mysteries. Under a scientific dictatorship, education will really work' with the result that most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution. There seems to be no good reason why a thoroughly scientific dictatorship should ever be overthrown.”

- Huxley, Brave New World Revisited, 116
(Huxley being one of Darwins mentors)

Aldous Huxley wrote BNW. His grandfather, Thomas Henry, was a defender and contemporary of Darwin. Aldous was not a "mentor" to Charles Darwin or vice versa, seeing how Aldous was born (1894)after Darwin died (1882).

On another note, don't make the incorrect assertion that the theories of evolution and natural selection were based upon Christian foundations, nor are they 'beliefs' in and of themselves. Darwin was (at times) a Christian, so was T.H.Huxley (at times), but both men were scientists first and foremost. Huxley believed that science was common sense, and even though he was primarily an agnostic he believed the Bible could teach strong moral values - but not science.

------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V

Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.

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