Chavez agrees with me
POSTED BY: dreamtrove
UPDATED: Saturday, September 30, 2006 01:33
VIEWED: 5105
PAGE 3 of 6
I said I had no links because this was pre-me-having-internet. I intend to make a conspiracy site to prove that the Bush amind *is* the clinton admin, and will be the hillary admin, and then maybe the jeb admin, at some point, and it will be full of links. I have 2 tons of work to do at the moment though.
My main point in all the evil democrats in bush is that I want you people over on the left to recognize the enemy within as much as i want auraptor and all on the right to. I think good people will never defeat evil until we are united against it.
As long as the left blames only the long term conservative movement for the evil, it will never get to that point, which would be, to the truth.
Chavez is helping the poor? What planet are you on? Chavez is doing more for the American poor than he's doing for Venezuela. Venezualans would be rich if they had control of their own country. Chavez is just as much of a China pawn (he's giving them free oil) as he is a castro pawn (he's giving him free oil too) more than Caldera was ours.
Chavez's treatment of his native population, his environment, his electoral system, his private sector businesses and his own people are about as loving as any soviet leader. Almost.
I don't think he's the anti-christ, or evil, he's just a blind follower of the religion called socialism. A failed ideology with a lot of noble claims, and no noble results. "Sure, we'll help the needy, as long as you give us all of your money and absolute unchecked authoritarian power." And yet people still fall for it.
Morales as I said, I have more hope for. He talked about upping Bolivian business and the Bolivian economy, standard of living, and I think he was much more angry, and "I'm doing this for my people" and much less "Wow, I'm king now, China made me king." Who he seems most like to me is Hamid Karzai, who had that look visavis Bush. By contrast, Talibani strikes me as genuinely concerned about his people.
I don't think this is a partisan issue, as Morales and Chavez are the same actual party, and Talibani and Karzai are the same defacto party, ie., pro-us.
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Citizen
Whatever.
You see my point. I don't dislike you, I just said you're becoming an auraptor of the left. And like a muslim who has been called violent, you miss the irony of your actions.
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Dreamtrove - I would like to be enlightened with specifics as to how his ideology is hurting his people, since you are going to claim it.
Not that I doubt you have specifics, but without them your argument is less convincing than Rue's, who posted examples of Chavez's contribution to Venezuela.
What do you mean by control of their own country? You mean like we have? Cuz we're all so bloody rich in america, sporting the highest poverty rate among rich nations.
Chavez was elected by the way, and the validity of his election was less in doubt than our own. He let foreign poll monitors actually watch his election.
Calling him a pawn of Cuba and China doesn't make much sense either. What makes him a pawn?
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I said I had no links because this was pre-me-having-internet. I intend to make a conspiracy site to prove that the Bush amind *is* the clinton admin, and will be the hillary admin, and then maybe the jeb admin, at some point, and it will be full of links. I have 2 tons of work to do at the moment though.
My main point in all the evil democrats in bush is that I want you people over on the left to recognize the enemy within as much as i want auraptor and all on the right to. I think good people will never defeat evil until we are united against it.
As long as the left blames only the long term conservative movement for the evil, it will never get to that point, which would be, to the truth.
Chavez is helping the poor? What planet are you on? Chavez is doing more for the American poor than he's doing for Venezuela. Venezualans would be rich if they had control of their own country. Chavez is just as much of a China pawn (he's giving them free oil) as he is a castro pawn (he's giving him free oil too) more than Caldera was ours.
Chavez's treatment of his native population, his environment, his electoral system, his private sector businesses and his own people are about as loving as any soviet leader. Almost.
I don't think he's the anti-christ, or evil, he's just a blind follower of the religion called socialism. A failed ideology with a lot of noble claims, and no noble results. "Sure, we'll help the needy, as long as you give us all of your money and absolute unchecked authoritarian power." And yet people still fall for it.
Morales as I said, I have more hope for. He talked about upping Bolivian business and the Bolivian economy, standard of living, and I think he was much more angry, and "I'm doing this for my people" and much less "Wow, I'm king now, China made me king." Who he seems most like to me is Hamid Karzai, who had that look visavis Bush. By contrast, Talibani strikes me as genuinely concerned about his people.
I don't think this is a partisan issue, as Morales and Chavez are the same actual party, and Talibani and Karzai are the same defacto party, ie., pro-us.
New here, so pardon the interruption. I would come down on the side of Dreamtrove on this Chavez debate. He treats the Venezuelan media, poor, and opposition like dogs. There is also a Clinton - Bush complex in American politics. This will be proved when we go into our 32 year of one of them running the white house.
While reading some of the past threads, before jumping in, I realized there is a group of you who will take any side(no matter how repulsive) other than America's. Whats up with that? I will go read more past threads to try and catch up.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
They sit in some conference room (or in the Green Zone) and get the latest poop from the Press Scy/ General/ Head Dog Catcher.
Hey, don't lump us good folk in Animal Control in with those losers!!!
"Why're you arguin' what's already been decided?"
Mal to Jayne, "Jaynestown"
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Dreamtrove- I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that the elite in Bolivia will not let Morales reach his goals no matter how reasonable and modest they might be. Because the wealthy ARE wealthy through corruption- they have absolutely no intention of improving business, or raising the standard of living. They have only one pursuit- to maintain their unfair and un-earned stranglehold on land and money. For God's sake, the LAST thing they want is competition!
And then one of two things will happen: Morales will be seen as a failure by his current supporters, who will dump him in favor of someone more radical... or Morales himself will become more radical as the intransigience of the wealthy becomes truly obstructive. And then all hell will break loose.
Your model for progress doesn't work for countries like Bolivia and Venezuela because they have virtually no middle class. The dynamic is entirely different there than here. IF Morales could create a large enough middle class fast enough then they would try to glue the situaiton together. But I'm of the impression that the wealthy in that country are so damn greedy and arrogant that they'll resist reform until the pitchforks, flambeaus and AK-47s are outside their villas. I think this will take 4-5 years to unfold, but I'm pretty certain it's heading in that direction.
Chavez is very much in the mold of Castro or Napolean or Kaddafi: a single ruler whose government and reforms may not survive the person. I think they see themselves as "benefactors" and "creators of a new society" and the genesis of everything good. They don't realize that they need to get the buy-in of their population, and to set into motion self-sustaining processes. But Chavez is actually doing more good for his nation that his predecessors ever did, and he is having a beneficial impact on the society in terms of actual standard of living. I get that you don't like his methods, but don't blind yourself to the results either, or you'll be just another ideologue with an axe to grind .
As far as seeing the evil within: As far as I'm concerned, 95%+ of politicans are so thoroughly co-opted by wealth that they may as well be chucked into the ocean w/ concrete shoes. Clinton's love affair with NAFTA and China soured me on his basic approach. But Clinton did a couple of positive things: he raised the minimum wage and reduced the Federal deficit.
Look, I know you're into saying that they're all the same- like all governments are the same- but although Clinton and Bush are both playing to wealth, there ARE differences among the wealthy. Once again, I think your ideology is blinding you to the fact that even the wealthy have some pretty strong schisms running between them, and that you're missing critical distinctions between those corporations that feast on war and those that get fat in peacetime.
---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Quote:Beg pardon!! Comparing you to Bush is an insult to dog catchers everyhwere!
They sit in some conference room (or in the Green Zone) and get the latest poop from the Press Scy/ General/ Head Dog Catcher... SignyM
Hey, don't lump us good folk in Animal Control in with those losers!!!
---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Dream
Whatever.
You accuse me of being 'Auraptor' yet I always attempt to back up what I say. You never do, I suspect the irony of all the accusations you level at me being more true of you is lost on you.
You're a rightwind Troll. Nothing you say has any wieght until that changes.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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In a previous thread, a venezuelan did it a lot better than I, but in general, you can go around the web and read about Chavez and his govt.'s red friends, and how they get free oil, and how chavez is poiling up on weapons, and how he has a mainstreaming program to assimilate indians, similar to what we once had in this country.
I don't think he's the anti-christ, as I said, but I do think that he's a typical socialist dictator.
Chavez's democratic elections are in plenty of doubt, ours are down right fraudulent.
Chavez's "oil for expertise" program does not even come close to a fair economic exchange for Venezuela. This analysis has been done many times. Since he is president of Venezuela, and makes deals which clearly benefit China and Cuba at the expense of Venezuela, I'd say that makes him most certainly a pawn. I think that one could easily say in the same sense that Bush is a pawn of Saudi Arabia and Israel, and I wouldn't disagree. Whoever Chavez's own personal allies overseas are is immaterial. His first responsibility is to the people of Venezuela.
In addition, Venezuela has had one on the world's highest rates of deforestation under Chavez. The fact that he now has a re-forestation problem doesn't help. The problem isn't just the # of trees, it's the first growth forest which is being destroyed, and destroying the species of life on earth.
So:
1. He is destroying indigenous cultures, and moving indian populations.
2. He is destroying rainforest and species.
3. He is stock piling weapons in the stated interest of spreading socialism
4. He is giving away Venezualan natural resources to his own personal friends.
5. He has silenced opposition, free of speech.
6. He has solidified his own personal power.
All of this was on an earlier thread, and I went digging. I suck at links, sorry. I'm sure it's out there. If I were a venezuelan, I'd vote for someone else. His best thing so far was that he offered to sell heating oil to the american poor at a discount. He likes to be liked, but it was a good thing to do, I'm a fan of soft power. I don't think he represents the interests of the people of Venezeula. I do think Evo Morales represents the interests of the people of Bolivia.
The point of my post is that really, Chavez has no diplomatic skill.
Quote:
What do you mean by control of their own country? You mean like we have? Cuz we're all so bloody rich in america, sporting the highest poverty rate among rich nations.
When did I say that Bush/Clinton was good govt?
I think good leaders are hard to find these days. I think Roh Moo-hyun does a decent job, as does Vincente Fox, I think even Ahmadinejad is a decent leader, who deeply cares about his people and their welfare. I think Manmohan Singh is a good leader. I said I think Evo Morales has promise.
But some world leaders are less than above board, and others are real thugs. The world's worst leader is undoubtedly, and I think he has a ten point lead: Robert Mugabe. I think he got a head start. I think that if someone suggested getting rid of him in the UN you would see a single dissenter other than himseld, Mr. Thabo Mbeki, who is also way down there. Mbeki, who denied for years that AIDS exists, still maintains a ban on medical treatment of AIDS patients. Also low on my list is Mr. Vladimir Putin, who wants to throw his country back into the dark ages, and jailed his own political opposition, and stole his own people's wealth and oil, and is stealing the Chechen's, and now the Kurd's. Jacques Chirac is pretty appalling, the fact that man would be in jail if he weren't president is not a rumor, he's already been convicted twice of embezzlement, and uses presidential immunity to avoid imprisonment, not to mention, he nuked Tahiti twice, and is personally responsible for the extinction of more species of life than any other living being. Kim Jong Il is a terrible leader, but he doesn't even compare to the ones in the above list. He's probably actually trying to do what he thinks is best for his country, he's just wrong. Hu Ji
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Re: Clinton and Bush, it is not that they are "all the same" it's that this is the same group, same small cabal... closer to each other than they are to members of their own party. It's like Running Aniken Skywalker against Senator Palpatine in an election.
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