Open war - a poll
POSTED BY: dreamtrove
UPDATED: Thursday, September 21, 2006 22:20
VIEWED: 3929
PAGE 4 of 4
Heya antimason,
I've been wanting to reply to various of your posts, but it's tough to keep track of your ideas because you mostly say the same things over and over and at great length, so trying to have a converstion under such conditions is a little like trying to have a converstation with a dictionary or an encyclopedia, it's hard to focus on any one issue and finish a thought.
Have you ever considered that Lucifer might have had a hand in creating the Bible as we know it? How could he not? As inspired as the men were who set it down, they were all of them as fallen as Adam. I recognize that you're a man of good will and good faith, but the websites you link to preach fear. Anybody preaching fear is not preaching Christ, antimason. Anyone preaching fear is preaching from the book of Lucifer.
In your latest link, there's a list of all the evil things Freemasons are into and the great majority that stuff is utterly benign and some of it is even sanctioned by Saint Paul as "gifts of the spirit." Here's the list:
Quote:Whew! I've itallicized the subjects I have either studied extensively or practiced myself and I tell you that none of what I've practiced is demonic or evil.
Alchemy; Ancient Religions; Astral Body [Satanic practice]; Astrology [Forbidden in Bible]; Auto-Suggestion; Babylonian; Blavatsky, H.P. [one of the most Satanic Black Magick practitioners of all time! Her teachings were studied by Adolf Hitler and provided basis for the Jewish Holocaust]; Buddhism; Card Reading; Chaldean [Babylon and Chaldean Mysteries were brought into total annihilation by God for their severe Satanism, and is the same Babylon condemned in the Book of Revelation]; Christian Mysticism [This is the "Christianity" of Masonry, where every single doctrine is reinterpreted]; Christian Science [Fully anti-Christian but compatible with Masonry]; Clairvoyance [Satanic to the core and forbidden in the Bible]; Color and Sound [Critically important to Satanism]; Cosmic Consciousness [SATANIC]; Crystal Gazing [Forbidden in Bible]; Divination [Forbidden in Bible]; Druidism and Celts [Elevated human sacrifice to highest levels]; Eastern Doctrines; Esoteric Christianity [Redefining Christian doctrines]; Evolution [And you just thought Masonry was compatible with true Christianity]; Fortune Telling [Forbidden in Bible]; Geomancy and Gematria [Satanic]; Gnosticism [Fought against in the Epistles of Paul in the Bible]; Hermetic; Holy Grail [Satanic allegory to produce Antichrist]; Hypnotism; Islam; Karma [Satanic doctrine teaching Reincarnation]; Love and Sex Consciousness [Completely Satanic]; Magic [Forbidden in Bible]; Nature Worship [Sun Worship primary worship of Invisible Freemasonry]; Palmistry [Satanic Divination]; Phallicism [Worship of Male erect Sex Organ!]; Qabalah [Satanic Reinterpretation of Hebrew Old Testament]; Reincarnation; Rosicrucian [Satanic to the core]; Serpent Worship [Not only is Masonry a religion, it worships the Serpent, actually Satan himself]; Telepathy [Satanic communication without audible language]; Tarot [Divination forbidden in Bible]; Transcendental Physics; Zoroastrianism [Satanic cult destroyed by God in Old Testament].
Buddhism is not evil. Tarot reading is not evil. Clairvoyance and telepathy and precognition are simply aspects of perception. Most of this stuff is simply available because the Universe is saturated with meaning and sometimes people just can't help picking up on it. Pick up enough and you begin to see patterns and connections, so that the movement of the stars and the birth of another human soul have a real discernable connection. Have you studied any of these subjects yourself? Are you afraid to? Reading these websites to find out about "the occult" is about as practical as watching Fox News to know what's going on in the world.
Yes, Freemasonry exists, and yes, it is
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I'm going with a combination of 1 and 2.
This is my humble opinion.
As for blame?
What blame. This is history repeating itself again and again. War between religions is never going to end. Its one religious extreme against the other religious extreme. It has been going on since time was time. No one person or country is going to change the way religion is interpreded. What we can change is to provide a safe haven for innocent people that don't have those same ideals. And that is the solution. Its the right to choose vs being forced to comply at the end of a rifle.
"Six men came to kill me one time. The best of 'em carried this. Its a Killhan Full-Bore Auto Lock, customized trigger, double-cartridge through-gage. It is my very favorite gun."
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DT,
There is another option, which is that Osama was not involved, but individual Al-Qaeda cells were (independently of Osama).
Anyway, I am curious why Osama is not wanted for 9/11 but for the Nairobi bombings. If there is so much clear EVIDENCE that links Osama to 9/11, I'd expect he'd be wanted equally for both incidents--at least. http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/laden.htm
To me, it's kind of like accusing someone of murder, but charging them with breaking and entering. It leaves me scratching my head.
Anyway, re your poll, my answer is I don't know and I wouldn't blame anyone conclusively. In my view, a proper and decent investigation has never been conducted, so we simply don't have the facts. However, if I could conduct an investigation myself, I'd start looking at possible suspects in 4, 6, 7, 8, 1, in that order.
Can't Take My Gorram Sky 
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HK
well put over all, this is the snag, only one problem: You can learn plenty from FoxNews. I think you mean I think that it's like watching Hannity&Colmes to find out what's going on in the world. The reporting itself is pretty good. It was fox news down at the wtc on 9-11, and in new orleans for katrina giving us the best coverage i saw.
Actually, I'd go one further, it's like listening to press releases from the whitehouse, or more like listening to a Bush speech to find out what's going on in the world. Yesterday he said "because of Hezbollah's unprovoked attack on Israel" Hey, commander in chimp, we were there, we all remember Israel attacking first.
CTTS,
Yeah, well, when I started digging there was increasingly a lack of evidence connecting Osama to 9-11, until for me, it came down to none at all. The option you stated was one I initially had up, and then clipped because I wanted a logical progression so that if we averaged it out, it would make sense.
The thing is Osama is probably really responsible for the Nairobi thing, he does a lot of his work in Africa. I think he's been a couple of times to Darfur.
I don't think the pegging of Osama was malicious, I think it was just typical our govt. in action. They had this theory about bin Laden all built up, and when it happened, they assumed Osama had done it. By the govt. I mean our CIA/FBI/and counter terrorism. The problem is that whoever actually did it knew this, and it made an excellent cover for the crime.
I believed for years that Osama had done it, but the case kept falling apart on me. Our confession tape of Osama is not only undeniably bogus, but has been disowned by our own CIA. The guy was just some actor, and someone working for us created the tape in afgh. We didn't "find it in the first house we looked, sitting on the table" which is the story. Minus this, things degenerate. We have two tapes from Bin Laden saying he didn't do it, one saying he wished he had done this, but the Taliban prevented him. Now he has the world to gain from getting credit for this thing, so why deny it?
The truth is, by this point, virtually everything we hear from "Al Qaeda" today is a fraud. Some of it is being cooked up by our own govt., other by endless muslim groups who want to be al qaeda. Even Al Zarqawi was basically a pretender. He knew Bin Laden and Zawahiri personally, but they didn't hire him to do the job.
This whole AQ organization is very different from how we view it. When muslims in the ME read our analysis, they beat their heads against the wall. It's not a command structure. If it's similar in construction to anything american I'd say probably the Underground Railroad.
I met a guy whose job it was to unravel tapes from al qaeda, and discern their intent based on the messages. When you consider that there is a mix of actual AQ, us govt., and random muslims, any such analysis is going to produce randomly bogus results.
Anyway, curious thing you point out. I think it's possible that AQ members w/o bin laden did it, even more probably than that bin laden was involved, but we're not 7/11. The united state is a little harder than robbing a convenience store. In fact, attacking the US without defense is impossible. You need a guy on the inside. Now I'm really pretty damn near certain of it, but it took a long time to sink in to my thick skull. That, plus, examining the whole thing as a physics problem, it would never happen. You can try this a million times, and you will never collapse a building by flying a plane into it. Let alone three.
Hitting three buildings with two planes is like hitting three birds with two stones. Also not going to happen. After much hemming and hawing, eventually I had to concede that part of the puzzle, and I was still on "How did Bin Laden..." get in and plant bombs in the building, and why did he want it to look like the planes did it. The why is obvious, for any suspect: Spectacle. But the how is trickier.
Someone needs a window of opportunity. They need it more than once. One: They need at
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Quote:Sorry if I'm pickin' nits here, but I didn't mean to say that antimason's research was totally worthless,
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I think you mean I think that it's like watching Hannity&Colmes to find out what's going on in the world.
only that if his exclusive sources for what is "occult" are these sites then he will never get the full story and what is worse, he may never realize it.Not the most eloquent analogy I ever came up with, that's for sure.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I don't accept that Freemasonry is a religion, I think it's indifferent to religion. It's a trade guild. It was always a trade guild, and it's not much different accept for its level of power.
so we should just discard the profound collective esoteric symbology that Masonry devotes itself to? they are not indifferent if they have a set belief system; especially one that is proven to be luciferian. as i said before luciferianism is a seperate religion from christianity; it is(in a sense)another abrahamic religion, only it includes what judeo/christianity would refer to as occultism. keep in mind, WE BELIEVE* that A God entity created everything in existence; including superhuman entities, ie Lucifer and the fallen angels, which at one point interfered with Man on earth. we believe that the pre-deluvian era, ie pre-flood, was when these events occurred; but also afterwards, as Moses says it genesis. when i refer to occultism, i refer to the worship of these beings, which were percieved as deities, and which the bible explicitly points out, came to decieve us. anything that fits within this paradigm, is what im personally refferring to when i dispute the occult;because it is all interrelated.
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Muslims are under attack from the NWO, that goes without saying. I think that in this to at least some extent, they are being driven by Israel.
i agree.. if you use America as mystery Babylon, then prophecy indicates that Israel and America both give rise to this final global government of antichrist; in fact, Israel will be decieved by the antichrist because he will appear to fullfill the prophecies of the coming of the messiah(actually, the return, but they didnt recognize him the first time). the current state of Israel is a Talmudic Israel, which came out of ancient Babylon. the problem is these diceptive heresies, which are occult in nature(once again, i refer you to my first comment), are creating in essence an anti-christianity
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Whatever the NWO is, I can tell you one thing it is not. It is not a branch of freemasonry. Freemasonry has collapsed in recent years, which largely seems to be due to a lack of funding. With the assets that the NWO has at its disposal, and the need that it has for a continued base of support, it would seem illogical for this to happen. Logically, it is also clear, that the current trend of extreme policy does not date back any further than the early 20th c. and mostly from the mid 20th, and hence is nowhere near as old as the masons.
freemasonry has facilitated the NWO, just as the Illuminati has. is it a coincidence that both idealogies share this utopic concept of a "new atlantis" and this pre-destined new order of the ages? the central banks are key to this agenda, and the America central bank has masonic symbolism on its currency; washington DC has masonic symbology... to me, there is something more profound occurring then most people are willing to accept
this debate isnt about whether God exists.. we all know how that goes; im telling you what the bible says; if you dont believe that A God exists, or that the bible is accurate, then nothing i have to say will convince you that these relationships are genuine
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The only connection between the two is terribly tenuous and of little significance. Adam Weishaupt, founder of the Bavarian Illuminati (not to be confused with the original Illuminati) was a member of a masonic order, from which he was expelled. After his expulsion, he created the BI, and within a few years he and all of his followers were arrested. William Henry Russell, founder of Skull and Bones, not himself a Mason, was an admirerer of Weishaupt's, though there is no evidence the two ever met. He established Phi Beta Kappa in emulation of the BI. When that became too public, he tried again and created 'Scull' and Bones [sic] That's an extremely weak connection. Give me any two organizations on Earth and I can probably draw a stronger one. Israel and Nazi Germany have strNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
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Masonry
No, they haven't. It's a stretch at best. This is what I consider part of the christian problem. You are launching a viscious attack on a group which has nothing to do with you, which is not you're enemy, you chuck labels at it like "evil," and "satan." I'm not a mason, but I can look around me, masons are just folks. They build houses, grow corn, and feed their families. They're not unlike Bin Laden in that regard, or me and you. They don't destroy the world with evil satanic plots. I suspect someone has been feeding you propoganda.
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WE BELIEVE*
If that belief demands that there can have been no other person with independent thought and will other than the God which you have created, than I humbly suggest that this believe may be flawed.
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anything that fits within this paradigm,
You're paradigm seems at times to be too broad.
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Israel and America both give rise to this final global government
This seems in tune with the reality I know.
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freemasonry has facilitated the NWO, just as the Illuminati has.
Or Og the Caveman. This is reaching. No one was *this* NWO except those at the table who laid out this NWO. If someone used the phrase before, that means nothing. The creation of democracy to replace monarchy was once the NWO, but that is now the OWO. This NEW NWO is something new, created by a new group of people, none of them masons.
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is it a coincidence that both idealogies share this utopic concept of a "new atlantis" and this pre-destined new order of the ages?
Possibly.
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the central banks are key to this agenda, and the America central bank has masonic symbolism on its currency; washington DC has masonic symbology... to me, there is something more profound occurring then most people are willing to accept
Or, they are a communist plot.
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this debate isnt about whether God exists.. we all know how that goes; im telling you what the bible says; if you dont believe that A God exists, or that the bible is accurate, then nothing i have to say will convince you that these relationships are genuine
The converse is probably also true. We must agree to disagree about this. My religion has no supreme entity, and I see no need for one, in fact, I think he gets in the way of the faith. But this is the difference of our beliefs. Nothing will change this. For one of us to lose our faith would defeat this argument, and so I don't want that. We each represent upwards of a billion people. If a Hindu or a Bhuddist or a Muslim would join in, each one would bring another billion. Our debate here, is, to me, symbolic of a worldwide debate. Just like the arguments I have with democrats are based on the idea that if we don't unite on some common ground against a common enemy, we are lost, so too with this. Such a common ground, however, *must* be a logical basis for a lack of content, *not* a gentlemen's agreement, since we are not speaking for ourselves, but instead we are representing vast ideologies, which too must come into some sort of alignment against evil, or evil will win. Such an alliance must *NOT* require any group to switch from left to right or christian to non-christian, as if it does, it will certainly fail.
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The only connection between the two is terribly tenuous and of little significance. Adam Weishaupt, founder of the Bavarian Illuminati (not to be confused with the original Illuminati) was a member of a masonic order, from which he was expelled. After his expulsion, he created the BI, and within a few years he and all of his followers were arrested. William Henry Russell, founder of Skull and Bones, not himself a Mason, was an admirerer of Weishaupt's, though there is no evidence the two ever met. He established Phi Beta Kappa in emulation of the BI. When that became too public, he tried again and created 'Scull' and Bones That's an extremely weak connection. Give me any two organizations on Earth and I can probably draw a stronger one. IsraNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME