The Fascist Ideology of Star Trek
POSTED BY: citizen
UPDATED: Sunday, June 7, 2026 16:12
VIEWED: 22000
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State to the people -> Socalism
People to the State -> Fascism
Their opposites, not my belief it's right there. The only argument I've heard that is even half way convincing is that big government is leftist. But it isn't, totalitarianism and big government aren't the purview of either side of the political spectrum.
Hitler envied and was full of praise for the American economic (capitalist) system. That's hardly very socialist is it.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
State to the people -> Socalism
People to the State -> Fascism
Their opposites, not my belief it's right there. The only argument I've heard that is even half way convincing is that big government is leftist. But it isn't, totalitarianism and big government aren't the purview of either side of the political spectrum.
Would you say that Stalin/Mao/Pol Pot were facist?
It is not obvious to me that any of them were controlled by their "people".
Quote:
Hitler envied and was full of praise for the American economic (capitalist) system. That's hardly very socialist is it.
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My understanding was that Hitler regarded the US with some contempt.
Can you provide a source?
If the term "right wing" can include supporters of National Socialism and International Capitalism, it is clearly too broad to be of use for anything except hurling insults at people
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Quote:No. Would you say General Pinochet was Fascist?
Originally posted by Cavalier:
Would you say that Stalin/Mao/Pol Pot were facist?
Quote:Huh? Where did I say the people control fascism? In Fascism people provide for the state, in Socialism it's supposed to be the other way around, the state providing for the people. Things like state provided Healthcare and education are socialist; things like living your life merely to better the state are fascist.
It is not obvious to me that any of them were controlled by their "people".
Quote:In his early years Hitler praised the US, especially the 'race-based' immigration, and subordination of the 'inferior' black race in the US in Mein Kampf. He also praised the US for education and I've seen many arguments that say he based some of the Nazi's economics on that of the US. So Mein Kampf is a good source for Hitler's praise of the United States.
My understanding was that Hitler regarded the US with some contempt.
Can you provide a source?
One of Hitler's major economic policies was to increase consumerism, I also don't see how this is Socialist, seems fairly capitalist to me.
Quote:Firstly we're talking Fascism, of which Nazism is a form. I find it interesting that those who want to prove fascism is left-wing focus on Nazism because they called themselves National Socialists. Hurling Insults? I'm merely saying both sides of the political spectrum have their black marks, it seems it's the right leaning folk who wish to hurl the insults by proving every bad thing in the world ultimately comes down to the left. If "left wing" means "all evil" it seems to be a fairly redundant term.
If the term "right wing" can include supporters of National Socialism and International Capitalism, it is clearly too broad to be of use for anything except hurling insults at people
If "Left wing" can mean everything from Liberal or Socialist Democracy to Communism to Fascism it is clearly too broad to be of use for anything except hurling insults at people
.Big Government Totalitarian states are not the sole purview of the left, no matter how much those on the right would like it to be so
.More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:This thread is nothing more then Citizen’s veiled attempt to malign those on this board who lean to the right, economically. What might have been an interesting comparison and contrast of the message of Star Trek vs Firefly is instead nothing short of an exercise in Godwin’s law.
Originally posted by Cavalier:
If the term "right wing" can include supporters of National Socialism and International Capitalism, it is clearly too broad to be of use for anything except hurling insults at people
Most modern right-leaning Americans see things very differently then the Nazis did. Citizen is making the absurd suggestion that if you advocate Right-wing economic practices today you are a Fascist but won’t admit it. The contempt displayed by such an argument is exceeded only by its ignorance. What about the economic practices of the Nazis are in anyway favored by conservative Americans? How many conservative Republicans have broad support for Labor Unions or Welfare/Entitlements? How many conservative Republicans support socialized medicine? Conservative Justices in American voted against the use of Eminent Domain as a tool of corporate economic development. How many conservative Republicans believe that corporations should be directly controlled by the government? Conservative Republicans largely were in favor of getting rid of Social Security and replacing it with investments. The fact is that the majority of Right-Wing Americans share virtually nothing with the economic interests of the Nazis, and to suggest that Right-wing Americans who see the very Left-wing economic practices of the Nazis as unfavorable are somehow trying to hide the smell of their own fascism is absolute drivel.
This discussion does not belong on the General Board. It should be moved down to RWE with the rest of the inflammatory nonsense, unless someone is interested in discussing, without accusing others of Fascisms, the original premise.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
chrisisall wrote:
The Drumhead and Insurrection are the first two that come to mind
Okay, so there are some actual examples. Thanks.
I don't know how right or left the economic policies of the Nazis were (don't care, really), but I fail to see how that's pertinent. A highly regimented economy is only one part of a fascist state, but the definition also says there are other requirements. Looks like there might be one of those denotation/connotation problems here. Those examples may be offered in the shows mentioned above, but I just didn't see any offered by the author.
By the way, from what generation of Star Trek are those episodes? There are just so many offshoots.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I think the author is implying something about the message of Star Trek. There is an implied Leftist ideology that has existed in the Star Trek message sense the Next Generation. The idea is that Star Trek seems to embody what is essentially the basic propaganda of Fascist/Marxist politics, an egalitarian utopian society in which no one wants for anything and everyone happily trudges along working, not for their own dreams, but for the good of the State.
Now the older version of Star Trek didn’t seem to carry this message, even though it did suggest it. Captain Kirk seemed to demonstrate a very individualist nature. In many ways he was a lot like Mal, and that was the intent. He was supposed to be somewhat of a gunslinger in space. And in fact the whole premise of Star Trek was that of a Western in space (Star Trek was originally pitched as “Wagon Train to the Stars.”) It wasn’t until the ST:TNG came out that a very distinct Left-leaning Intellectualist ideology replaced the “Wagon Train.”
Finn, I think you have it backward. Or at the very least, you are confusing tone with theme. Do you not realize the Utopian society was the cornerstone of Rodenberry's concept for the Trek verse? It may have been structured like a western, as those were what was popular at the time, but the Utopian element was always there, and strong. The federation was the perfect society. Kirk and co. may have been on a space Wagon train, but they were doing it in service of the utopia, regardless of Kirks individuality.
Roddenberry continued to push the Utopian concept in the first year of TNG. But as his health faltered, and the reins were taken from him, TNG started doing a lot more episodes dealing with the dangers of such a society, like those mentioned above. By the time they got to DS9, the Trek verse was getting pretty far from Utopian.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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CHRISISALL!!
Please tell me that you didn't borrow the Zod picture I put in as a link from my original post. (see Just because I'm in the mood to stir the pot, upset the apple cart, and maybe throw the baby out with the bathwater...) If you did it is willfully distorting this thread. Once I discovered I-Mockery's insidious little game (kind admirably ingenious actually), I changed the link in the thread. If you go back and recopy the pic, it should pick up the new link and then you can edit it into you one post here. Sorry for the poinsoned arrow. I have much to read and much to ponder on this thread and can hardly wait to formulate a proper response. But in the meantime I thought I'd try to clear up this little matter.
"Well, here I am."
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Drumhead was a NG ep, Insurrection the second to last movie.
I love Roddenberry, but I think his version of 'utopia' was just a little too neat and tidy.
But it is/was hopeful Chrisisall
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Quote:Yes, I do realize that, which is why I said that the older version of Star Trek definitely suggested the utopian theme. It was something that existed in the background but was never well defined. The idea was that this was the future and the Federation was a much more “enlightened” place to live. It did not take many sides of what made the Federation so great. In the TNG the notion of a very anti-capitalist system was suggested, with allusions to things like the absence of money and capital/investment instruments that defined the “good guys” which was clearly contrasted with the rotten capitalist Ferangi. There can be no doubt what the message there is.
Originally posted by Storymark:
Finn, I think you have it backward. Or at the very least, you are confusing tone with theme. Do you not realize the Utopian society was the cornerstone of Rodenberry's concept for the Trek verse? It may have been structured like a western, as those were what was popular at the time, but the Utopian element was always there, and strong. The federation was the perfect society. Kirk and co. may have been on a space Wagon train, but they were doing it in service of the utopia, regardless of Kirks individuality.
And yes, you’re also right that as the show progressed, its story began to explore more and more the failings of such a utopia, but that was certainly never the original story of TNG, and I never felt that it did so enough to really provide much balance.
Later shows like DS9 were much different, but these were other shows, not The Next Generation.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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I thought the United Federation of Planets is just a treaty to organize defence, exploration and other things. And the Starfleet is the military arm of the UFP. Which must be military because the universe and its intelligent lifeforms are often dangerous.
But ist the UFP a government of a state? Can it be fascistic? Has not every military organisation some fascistic traits?
I would never accuse the Navy of the USA to have an fascist ideology as long they are answerable to the government of the USA.
The author also question the lack of religions. I think religion is in conflict with reason. Religion would only hinder an utopia.
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