Angel Raped Buffy, Spike only tried

POSTED BY: FURYFIRE
UPDATED: Saturday, July 24, 2004 20:07
VIEWED: 35067
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STATIC

Thursday, January 29, 2004 5:29 PM

I only skimmed through this thread, but here's my input.

Given that the legal age of consent in California is 18, then the sex that occurred between Angel and Buffy is considered STATUATORY rape, which is to say that while it was CONSENSUAL, it was not LEGAL, the understanding being that the law considers someone under the established age of consent to be unable to GIVE 'fully informed' consent.

Basically, my friends in Juvenile Justice paraphrase this by saying, "It's easier to seduce them when they're that young, so you're taking advantage, which is SORT of like coercing them, which is SORT of like rape."

This has probably all been said anyhow, but I thought I'd offer my input.

==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

SPIKESPIEGEL

Thursday, January 29, 2004 5:52 PM

We seem to be agreed that if Angel raped Buffy at all, it was only in a technical, legal sense (Statutory).

Well, in a technical, legal sense, Angel is dead. Not just like, a mistaken identity case where he's wrongly assumed dead, but demonstrably, with cold skin and no pulse dead.

I'm pretty sure there's no precedent for charging dead people with crimes committed 220ish years after they died. Angel needs an airtight alibi, all he has to do is lie very, very still.

"Bang."

ATHERTONWING

Thursday, January 29, 2004 6:38 PM

well does that mean buffy committed an act of necrophilia? or is that mis-counted because of the fact she's a minor.......heh heh she LOVES dead people heh heh. ok but seriously...?

SPIKESPIEGEL

Thursday, January 29, 2004 7:14 PM

No wonder people stab you in the gut, Atherton.

Yeah, come to think of it, she DID commit necrophilia. But it was now, what, six years ago? I don't the statute of limitations on that minor, if gross, crime. But since she committed it as a minor, were she to have been convicted of it, the records would've been sealed once she was an adult, sparing us all from, you know, pondering this too closely.

"Bang."

LOADANDMAKEREADY

Friday, January 30, 2004 4:19 AM

Quote:
5. A jury's responsibility is to determine whether the facts or the case match up with the charges, not inject their own private opinions that are directly contrary with what the statute describes.

For 789 years -- that is since Magna Carta in the year 1215 -- there has been no greater principle of either English or American Constitutional Law than, that it is both the Right and Duty of the Jury to judge not only the meaning of the law, the facts of the case, and the moral intent of the accused, but that it is their PRIMARY, and PARAMOUNT Right and Duty to judge the justice of the Law itself ... and to hold all persons Not Guilty if they think the Law Itself is Unjust!

So, it is not only their RIGHT, it is their DUTY, to, "inject their own private opinions that are directly contrary with what the statute describes."

If the House passes a law, it is subject to approval or veto by the Senate. If the Senate pass the law, it is subject to approval or veto by the Executive. If the President signs it, it is subject to approval or veto by the Judiciary -- which hasn't truly done its job for nearly a Century. If the Supreme Court approve it, it is subject to approval or veto by the Citizenry through their agency ... the Jury!

So, it is not possible that you could be more mistaken.

"...no government, so called, can reasonably be trusted for a moment, or reasonably supposed to have honest purposes in view, any longer than it depends wholy on voluntary support." from NO TREASON by Lysander Spooner

ABOVE ALL ELSE, KYFHO!

LOADANDMAKEREADY

Friday, January 30, 2004 4:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by LivingImpaired:
- Stealing government weapons (don't know the techincal name, but know it's a crime)

Lets see: the gummymint sticks a tax board bayonet in your back and forces you to hand over your money, in effect a portion of your life -- the time and effort it took you to earn that money -- the goofermint then uses that stolen money to purchase weapons. The gummymint then calls it "stealing," and accuses you of "theft" when you take possession of property purchased with monies which were stolen from you.
You call it theft? I call it a tax rebate!

"It is the same with government as Caesar said it was with war: with money you can hire soldiers, and with soldiers you can get more money ... and also command general obedience to your will." Lysander Spooner

ABOVE ALL ELSE, KYFHO!

LOADANDMAKEREADY

Friday, January 30, 2004 5:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by twiceonsundays:
Maybe if you DID vote, the people in office (and making the laws) would be on your side. In a representative government, they can't represent you if they don't know how you feel. vote vote vote vote vote vote. One more time. vote. okay, two. vote! no, really, vote. Did I mention you should vote? And in between, call your representatives and tell them how you feel. And then vote.

The people in office are never on your side.

Who is going to fight harder for public office?
Your honest neighbor who knows he will have to put his life on "hold" for a number of years to gain office in order to secure a freedom or expand a freedom, then go back home and pick up his life where he left off, and enjoy that freedom?
Or someone who burns to control the lives of others, and sees politics as a way of combining his sickness with a career which will bring him personal wealth, power, and fame?

"You can see it in their eyes as they sit and move the levers that work the gears of the State. They look at you and know there really is a free lunch. And when they reach to tear off a piece of your flesh, do you bite the hand that feeds on you? Or do you like so many of your fellows, ask if the maggot likes you rare, medium, or well done?"
From the Second Book of KYFHO

Don't vote ... it only encourages them!

ABOVE ALL ELSE, KYFHO!

JASONZZZ

Friday, January 30, 2004 5:21 AM

Wow, do you tote guns in Montana too? Yeah, you are talking about Jury Nullification. People who believe that also believe they don't have to pay income tax because it said so right there in the Constitution.

Magna Carta, yes - basic law, blah blah blah. It's great, everything we know derives from it, but we don't use it! We might use it as a basis for comparison and talk about how things are derived and what reasoning there is for Laws. We aren't in England! (well for that matter, neither are the English, but that's another discussion) and we have our own set of laws of the land here.

Where I come from, we vote people in to the two branches of the Government, then the President picks the people for the third. The citizens makes laws thru the Legislature. Well, sure the special interest gets their influence in there somewhere and the water gets muddier from there on out. But what the hey - everyone gets to speak about it.

Hey you get picked for the jury, you review the facts, you listen to the Judge review the law that you get to compare the facts with, you and the other 11 folks go and compare notes from the law with the facts and you decide whether they match up. How simple is that? Why all of a sudden do you get to make the law? That's not representative. That's you (or somebody else equally as misinformed).

And yes, it's possible. Do people believe in nullification? When the case is muddy and the facts aren't straight, you can nullify all you want. I wouldn't want anyone convicted when the facts aren't all there. But we are an entire nation of people, not Joe sitting in the corner making up stuff. That's what you are saying - which even if true, doesn't make any sense.

Why? b/c if you can Jury Nullify one way, to say that the law doesn't apply b/c I don't like it; then you can also do it the other way and say that John (the defendent) is guilty even though the facts aren't all there, but I think his ass should be fried anyways.

If we do that, why have laws in the first place. Oh wait, why have trial in the first place. Why don't we just stand on the street corner and throw stones at each other. The gang with the more people and the bigger stones win! Woohoo!

Look, no reason to talk about this anymore. Obviously, I can see where you are coming from if you have to quote Lysander Spooner. He is brilliant when it comes from that end of the spectrum. But I vehemently disbelieve that the government is a completely separate entity from the people. Which, somehow, some people (like Lysander Spooner) believes.

The government *is* the people. Here in the US, we do not have a government of Monarchs dictating the law to us. We do not have religious freakzoids dictating their law from their version and interpretation of the book. And we certainly do not have gun toting morons running up and down the street thinking about who else they can drag back to the palace and whipped in the name of the law.

The people *do* absolutely decide what's going on, we vote people in. In many states, they have even more power thru the initiative process. But we have to all sit down and agree on what *is* the law first. If there is anything that I would disagree with more than having a King or some other royalty sitting high up there making law, is some Joe equally misinformed and start making up the law while they are sitting in the Jury.

No sir, you can take that back to whatever country that is from...

And pardon me for the tirate if you are not from the US. Maybe whereever you are from, you could actually do that. If that's the case, please let me know, so I can remember to stay the heck away from that place on my next biz trip.

(me shuttering in the corner of the thought)

And Holy Smokes! Don't vote! How else do you recommend getting their silly asses out from there? Would you recommend an armed revolt?
We have lots of dumb asses sitting in those benches right now, I would not agree any less. But we still make the laws - although that bit with raising their own salaries every yea

LOADANDMAKEREADY

Friday, January 30, 2004 6:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Why don't we just stand on the street corner and throw stones at each other. The gang with the more people and the bigger stones win! Woohoo!

Exactly, it's called Democracy!

"...a common passion or interest will always sway a majority, and there is no inducement to prevent them from sacrificing the weaker party..."
James Madison

Or as you so eloquently put it, "The gang with the more people and the bigger stones win!"
Democracy is an institutionalized form of mob rule ... my gang is bigger than your gang, so what we say goes.

Quote:
I vehemently disbelieve that the government is a completely separate entity from the people. Which, somehow, some people (like Lysander Spooner) believes.

Perhaps you should turn the television off for a little while, and take a closer look at the real world.

Quote:
The government *is* the people. Here in the US, we do not have a government of Monarchs dictating the law to us.

In theory: No. But in practise: Yes!

Quote:
And we certainly do not have gun toting morons running up and down the street thinking about who else they can drag back to the palace and whipped in the name of the law.

TRUE! In this country, those gun toting morons blow the heads off of mothers nursing their infants, or burn women and children to death in their own Church ... as they did in Texas a few years ago.

Quote:
The people *do* absolutely decide what's going on, we vote people in.

"I don't care who votes, as long as I get to choose the candidates."
Huey Long

Quote:
And pardon me for the tirade if you are not from the US. Maybe where ever you are from, you could actually do that. If that's the case, please let me know, so I can remember to stay the heck away from that place on my next biz trip.

The US is no longer the US. As for me, I currently -- and temporarily -- reside in the Peoples Republic of Califnordia ... a truly dystopian country if I ever saw one. Consider it the worlds largest open air insane asylum.

Quote:
And Holy Smokes! Don't vote! How else do you recommend getting their silly asses out from there?

Only to be replaced by other silly asses?

Quote:
Would you recommend an armed revolt?

"America is at that quite place where it is too late to change the system from within, and too early to start shooting the bastards."

Claire Wolff

{QUOTE]We have lots of dumb asses sitting in those benches right now, I would not agree any less. But we still make the laws - although that bit with raising their own salaries every year is really chapping my hide...

Actually, we "delegate" the making of laws to elected officials. Those elected officials have each sworn a solemn oath to obey the laws "WE" have created to limit their power! This body of law is called the Constitution. Its sole purpose is to define and limit the power and authority of Government.
The men and women in government routinely break those laws.
If they did NOT break those laws, if the Constitution were enforced, better than ninty percent of American government would disappear over night.

That, in what passes for my mind, is the sole problem with this country. It does no good to vote out of office a politician who has passed an egregious or unconstitutional law if said removal from office does not also repeal the law.

Oath of office enforcement!

Bill of Rights Enforcement!

And yes! I agree with you about the 27th Amendment to the Constitution! (Which was actually the original Second Amendment when submitted to the States for ratification in 1789 ... word for word!)
"No law, varying the compensation for the services of the Senators and Representatives, shall take effect, until an election of Representatives shall have intervened."

Constitutionally speaking, the United States Government is the largest and most powerful criminal organization in the history of this planet!

ABO

DRAKON

Friday, January 30, 2004 10:25 AM

Only one point to point out.

In arguing the law, you have to ask whether the law even covers this case. Angel is, and has been, dead for quite some time. At present, there is no explicit law declaring vampires or other undead to be subject to the law. And being dead does prevent prosecution in almost all cases, of murder, rape and the like. Theft and other property crimes, it is my understanding the estate may be made liable for restitution, but cannot be held accountable for the actions of the deceased.

In short, is it still statatory rape if the guy is dead?

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

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