stupid, evil, and corrupt
POSTED BY: rue
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 25, 2026 22:34
VIEWED: 5904
PAGE 3 of 13
It seems that a lot of Libertarians assume that if a government shrinks it automatically becomes "better". But I can think of a lot of ways in which a fiscally small government could be oppressive. Strip away all the fluff and lint that accumulates with time, and at its heart a 'government' is a series of laws which "govern" how we relate to each other, how corporations relate to individuals and to each other, how ideas are "owned" and "sold", how we all relate to the government, who pays taxes and so forth.
Imagine a government that has written a series of laws: Corporations own everything. They pay no taxes, don't need to meet any rules, use and abuse anyone at will. Strikes are illegal. If you fall into debt, your creditor owns you. Now imagine that this government is VERY small: it spends no money on retirement, welfare, health care, or education. Instead, it puts a huge proportion of it's very small budget into "internal security".
Nice, huh?
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Quote:They don't HAVE to get money from the public till in order to benefit from government. All they need is a legal change to make them the rulers, and to use the government whip-hand to enforce corporate rules. See my post above.
These businesses basically never do anything in the game because they never get any money from the public till, *until* those companies were taken over by members of the inner circle.
And the question still stands: Now that we live in a corporatocracy, who will check the power of the corporation?
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Signym,
Here's what I see. A bunch of people on the left are jumping up and down with a "We knew it! The right is evil! This is what they've been gunning for all along."
No, we haven't. Proof of this? Tony Blair, Bill Clinton. A lot of us on the right think that maybe this is what *you* have been gunning for, whether clinton, blair, or bush-is-a-mole theory, but that's a tough pill for anyone to swallow.
The fact is: this is what *they* have been gunning for, where the they is the trotksy communist, socialist, authoritarian revolutionaries, those who supported them, their movement, and those that are now in power. It's not a democrat or a republican, even when it has a democrat or republican face, and it's not the labor party, even when it says it is. The proof of this is in the older members of all of those parties complaining about the radical agenda. It's an intellectual academic think tank idea based on thoughts like "the only thing the soviets did wrong which made them fail was..." and "the only problem with the nazi was..." without realizing that the end of those sentences is "that they were really evil!"
Bush-ism is not the core of right wing capitalism, and if you don't see that, fine, but don't come running to me when Hillary Clinton invades Iran, Venezeula, institutes a draft, etc.
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Auraptor,
The so called fair tax in the national sales tax, and it's a huge open invite to big govt. that will swallow us whole. It makes no guarantee to get rid of the appalling income tax, so knowing this govt., double taxation is almost a guarantee.
Rue,
Not to butt in, but I don't even see the point in a Clinton vs. Bush debate. That's sort of like arguing in favor of Stalin because he didn't kill quite as many innocent civilians as Hitler. IMHO. Just saying.
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Quote:DT- you are seriously missing the point. Setting aside your crazy-making monikers (liberals= nazis, communists= fascists) the fact is that corporations run government today, not the other way around, and eventually we will see government 'wither way' but this will not lead to greater freedom as the Libertarians and Communists believe (so Libertarians= communists) but to greater oppression from a different direction.
Here's what I see. A bunch of people on the left are jumping up and down with a "We knew it! The right is evil! This is what they've been gunning for all along."
Quote:"This"???? What is "this" that "they" have been gunning for? One-world government? Complete corruption of democracy? Please elucidate.
this is what *they* have been gunning for, where the they is the trotksy communist, socialist, authoritarian revolutionaries, those who supported them, their movement, and those that are now in power.
BTW- "They" (the people in power today) are not thinking "the only thing the soviets did wrong which made them fail was..." and "the only problem with the nazi was..." What they are really thinkling isd... "How can I squeeze more $$$ out of my operations"?
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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DT:
Make me.
What, did I point out something that goes counter to your ideology?
Always willing to twist failures of your ideology on to communism, rather than open your eyes to reality. "Oh it's not the private corporations doing it, its, its, its Communist body snatchers from the communy-one nebula!" You need some new bullshit mate.
I'm right your wrong, get up to speed, get on the same page, I don't need to make a case, I said it...
Sound familiar? It should its how you make a case.
Quote:No that would be you, maybe you want to explain again how anything you say is automatically unbiased fact?
Citizen was just being an ass.
Or perhaps for the first time you'd like to back up something you've said with something more substantial than "shut up I'm right, I'm always right, didn't you get the memo?"
AU:
That's as good as "Yes Citizen, you're right" and about as close as you can get, thanks, I'll take it.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Signym,
You're completely misreading what I'm saying.
I don't miss the point at all. The point is just wrong, it's incorrect. The key corporations are just stooge organizations for the agenda. There are profiteers there, sure. But what is wrong with our govt. is the huge agenda monkeys.
Communists, btw, whatever else you believe about them, are NOT anti-govt. They're extremely pro govt. In communist dystopia, the govt is all things.
Also, (and this is the one where I have to pick you up and shake you and say wake up:)
Under George W Bush and company, Govt. is NOT shrinking. It is growing by leaps and bounds. You're making a classical liberal Bush-is-a-conservative ergo everything-conservative-has-been-leading-towards-Bush mistake.
Conservatives believe in limited govt. scaling back govt., etc. This has absolutely zippo to do with George W. Bush, who may say things like "oh let's privatize, but only if you give it all to me," and in reality has no interest of letting go of anything. Bush has the largest spending of any govt. ever; The most non-military employees of any govt. ever; The most reach into the peoples lives of any american govt., the most executive power of any american govt. Bush *IS* big govt.
The truth, IMHO, is that we are NOT at a point where we have limited govt and we need more govt. in order to bring things back to normal. We have way way way too much govt., and need to radically scale it back in order to bring things back to normal. Remember, the free society that our founding fathers set up in 1776 originally had no federal govt. at all. By the civil war, it barely had a govt., maybe on the level of the EU today, and that was considered so oppressive that the south revolted (not just about slavery) Now, looking today, that kind of govt. looks like total anarachy compared to the de facto soviet state of amerika we are apparantly building today.
*This* was George W. Bush and all that that entails.
Quote:
BTW- "They" (the people in power today) are not thinking "the only thing the soviets did wrong which made them fail was..." and "the only problem with the nazi was..." What they are really thinkling isd... "How can I squeeze more $$$ out of my operations"?
I would be delighted if you were right. This would be a tiny problem compared to the one which we now have. Unfortunately, I'm sure that it's much much worse than this. If this were the case, they wouldn't bother with the war and the torture and the genocide and the massive military buildup, the funding of call it what you will international terrorism, or the destroying of freedom and erasing of rights, none of this serves the profit motive. If they were about the profit motive they'd line all their corrupt ducks in a row and start passing huge bills which created projects that the people would never rise up against.
Consider some of these ways to make FAR more money than the war in Iraq:
Rebuilding America: a project to rebuild disintegrating inner cities in america. A huge construction project for which you could easily allocate 60 billion a year, maybe a great deal more, and hire Halliburton to do the work.
A comprehensive National healthcare plan: Everyone everywhere is insured by the govt., whatever the drug and medical companies charge, we pay it. You could pump half a trillion a year easily out to your corporate friends. Does it benefit someone you don't own? Well then buy that company before you pass the bill.
Insourcing: A handout to any company that hires americans, or maybe a blank check loan.
There's just a million ways to do this. I'm not saying they're not doing any of it, of course they are. But to them, it's just a means to an end.
Here's one for you: In Florida, it seems that JEB Bush made off with a billion dollars by creating fictional patients with fictional conditions who were treated in a fictional wing of a real hospital. But did he keep the cash? No. He funnelled it to third world terrorist groups in latin america to attempt to depose political enemies such as Chavez and
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Citizen,
The reason you irritate me is that you oppose for the sake of opposing. You're constantly devils advocate. I basically accept and everyone here does that you're not going to make someone switch allegiances. If you're a communist, that's news to me, I thought you were a libdem or something.
Communism has killed more people than any other ideology, feel free to crunch the numbers. Living under a system of communism, (ever tried it? I have,) you're personal freedoms are pretty close to zero. Service to the state is the only purpose of your life. You may marry and have children because the state permits it, because it generates new workers. This is hardly a free society that the sorts of our Mr. Reynolds would care to live in. In communism, everyone (except for the oligarchs) is equal. They are all peasants in an equal level of destitute poverty. Virtually every communist regime has at some point gone ape on its own population. The larger ones, Russia, China, have done it several times. In the past year, China executed more of its own citizens than the US has lost in military conflict since Vietnam. About 3 to 4 times as many in fact. During WWII, the soviets ran extermination operations like the germans. Before the war, they carried out numerous "purges." After the war, the Chinese did the same. Communism deserves friends no more than Naziism does. If history is any guide, the two are really six of one, half a dozen of the other.
Just out of curiosity, Do you know what a fellow traveller is?
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Quote:No, I say what I think, I at least feel the need to back up what I say, which puts me infinitely ahead of you, the man who actually thought saying "I'm right, you're wrong, get with the program" was a cogent argument.
Originally posted by Dreamtrove:
The reason you irritate me is that you oppose for the sake of opposing.
Quote:No your always devils advocate because you always say things I don't agree with *YAWN*.
You're constantly devils advocate.
Nice way to frame it: either you agree with me or you're just playing devils advocate for the sake of argument.
The fact that you find someone disagreeing with you to be annoying kind of goes against this next statement, don'tcha ya think?
Quote:No you don't, what you do is basically tell people you are right and they are wrong and they'll grow up one day and accept that.
I basically accept and everyone here does that you're not going to make someone switch allegiances.
Quote:I'm someone who recognises that being too ideological is bad. I'm someone who recognises that the very best working systems for the vast majority of people marry Socialism AND Capitalism, and the worst are more polarised either way.
If you're a communist, that's news to me, I thought you were a libdem or something.
I'm someone who recognises that blaming anything going wrong on "them" like you blame everything on communism, which in your mind has been redefined as anything bad, causes problems as surely as being a card carrying member of X.
Your capitalist rhetoric sounds identical to that of die hard communists. They say "Communism fails because the capitalists cause it" you say "all our problems are down to communists" it's the same basic argument to support the two oppsosing sides.
Quote:Why should I do your work for you? I want to see you do it, I'd be interested how many deaths were attributed to communism. You attribute things to communism because they are bad, not because they are communist, communism is your scape goat ever ready to take the blame in your mind when your ideology fails. It's about time you realised that and actually looking at things with an attempt at getting over your bias, rather than declaring something is unbiased because you said it.
Communism has killed more people than any other ideology, feel free to crunch the numbers.
Quote:Yes. I am not now, neither have I ever been a communist.
Just out of curiosity, Do you know what a fellow traveller is?
I've stated clearly that I believe certain things should be provided, healthcare for instance. I've also shown quite clearly that Public healthcare fares much better than private only systems. I see you have no argument as to how rail crashes like Hatfield, a consequence of privatisation, are a good thing.
I'm not a card carrying member of communism, neither am I a fellow traveller, you ARE a rabid follower of extreme capitalism, so much so you actually blame it's failures on everyone else to protect your precious ideology.
"You're either with capitalism or you're a communist!" Sounds familiar, almost like "You're either with us or against us!" *shivers*.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Citizen,
If you want to what I really think, I think you're a pseudo intellectual college grad who thinks he is much more intelligent than he really is. I think you're very naive about the way the world actually works, but you have all this stuff you've 'learned' which tells you that you know all the answers. In short, I think you're not as bright as you think you are.
At times you've shown that you can be a sane and amiable human being, but much of the time your overambitious ego gets in the way. You have launched into some of the most truly spectacular flamewars to appear on the forum, and I don't think I can recall a single occassion on which you have admitted a mistake.
I think that you never listen to constructive criticism, but take everything as a personal attack to be deflected at any cost, and so learn little from the experience.
At this rate, I suspect my Mr. Bush and your Mr. Blair will turn our nations into glowing rocks before you grow up, or at any rate, it will probably be too late to do anything about it, but in general, I hope you learn.
When I was your age, I was much the arrogant liberal prick that you are today.
I think it's interesting that you think of yourself as the more moderate of me and you. I don't think this is even close to reality.
If communists say "Communism fails because the capitalists cause it" then they are correct. But I don't blame all problems on communism, but communism in its many forms, including neocon (which is a subtype of trotsky socialism, the term was coined by noted socialist michael harrington to refer to other socialists, particularly, the ones who are in power right now)
Quote:
Why should I do your work for you? I want to see you do it, I'd be interested how many deaths were attributed to communism.
Unlike you, I actually work for a living, I have no free time. I've already crunch these numbers in an earlier thread. About 100 million. If you think that's high, you're not including africa.
I never said the things you have me to have said, btw.
You just have a lot to learn, and the first one is to relax and let go. You are strung like a kite, and convinced that you must know more, understand things better, and be closer to the ultimate good than other people. I'm not going to have this out with you in a flame war.
One of the first things I said in this forum was in response to Rue's "everything I know I learned by the grace of others" and I said "much of what I know I learned by losing an argument with some asshole."
I don't have to hope that you'll come around. In time, either you will, or you'll or you won't. What would really serve you and those around you best is if you could come to the position that opinions other than your own were also valid.
I think, btw, that you're basically a decent, likeable, intelligent guy, who just happens to have, if you'll pardon the expression, his head stuck too far up his own... er... shell.
Relax, unwind, and try to experiment with points of view other than those you agree with. join a club of people with a different political slant, read some books, role play your own opposition, talk to a tory. Whatever you have to do to break this mold, because, from the outside, it doesn't look like an objective well thought out position based on a coherent world view. It looks like the argument of some punk who learned it one way, never questioned it, and now spouts it as loud and as often as he can to let others know how smart he is.
I hope you take this the way it's inteneded, as a suggestion, from a friend, to can the attitude and think.
I tried more gently to say this once before, and you completely missed the point, which is why I started ignoring your posts. I'm not going to spend the time to say it again.
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