Do You Have a Thinking Problem?
POSTED BY: canttakesky
UPDATED: Friday, April 24, 2026 00:33
VIEWED: 13256
PAGE 12 of 17
Finn,
The reason why I disliked this post is b/c if you are trying to develop an argument, you're doing a really poor job. It's filled with assumptions, unstated (and untrue) equations, errors of fact, contractions ... it's difficult to figure out WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY ?
What ARE you trying to say? Can you sum it up and say it in different words?
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This is the problem right here. This debate is not about logic, as some wish to frame it. It is about an assessment of truth.
But human truth has to at least be congruent with human experience and thought; which means it must at a minimum obey logic. To show that something is not logical is to rule it out as a truth.
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SimonWho wants you believe that only his truth is logical, not CTS, because he wants you to believe that only his truth is right.
I'm not sure I got that out of the debate. What I got was that something, which is on its face demonstrably illogical, cannot be truth.
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Everyone holds certain ideas to be indisputable. Concepts based on faith are the foundations of truth. In mathematics, they are called postulates.
That is true. And this board has had this debate often enough that, I think, we've gone past the point of debating whether anything is real, we accept the material world as a given, and we acknowledge that human perception and conceptualization are limited. And go on from there.
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And logic flows from these.
One would hope. But why are you mentioning logic when you seem to dimiss it at the start?
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Many of you, including HK and Citizen, have claimed to have undeniable “psychic” experiences, of which you cannot prove or even provide evidence of.
Point of fact, I don't think Citizen has ever referenced psychic events.
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These ideas are set forth axiomatically, not proven; they’re based on faith. They are essentially religion.
WHOA there! Nellie. On what basis do you equate a personal experience with a 'religion'? (Unless you want to get into the whole debate about reality, which I thought we'd gotten past.) Or are you trying to say that the reader is supposed to take the stories 'on faith' and treat it /them as a religion? I don't think anyone here is asking that of anyone.
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So what SimonWho, HK and Citizen have set upon doing here is not to prove that CTS is illogical, but rather that their religion is better then hers.
And now you're bringing in SimonWHo, for even less reason than Citizen, or HK.
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Now we should eliminate words like “god,” “belief” or “faith,” because these are the words CTS uses to define her postulated notions of reality. Doing so, thereby silences CTS and reinforces HK postulated notions of reality.
What I got out of HKs posting is - we're not making headway this way, for purposes of discussion, let's try another way.
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The truth is that none of us have a mandate on the truth. None of us have complete knowledge of the universe. None of us can say for sure that what he or she sees or experiences or knows is the real universe or just how he or she is interpreting it.
I thought the discussion on this topic had gotten there many threads ago.
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What does it mean to “know” something? That’s the problem here, not logic.
So we ARE back to debating 'what is the nature of reality' !
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I think some of you need to learn to open your minds to the greater concept that the universe is not independent of your thoughts and that your notions or (of ?) reality, ...
And there are theorists who think otherwise. What you say is entirely possible, but not a given.
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... no matter how certain you are of them, are not universal.
I think anyone who supports science gets that knowledge is ONLY based on the wreckage of previous knowledge, and that it's provisional at all times. Since you are stating something obvious, I can't imagine what your point is.
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Attempting to frame your position as one of science doesn’t make you right, because science is unable to provide answers to questions being posed here.
Wh
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Quote:Umm... yes, in philisophy I believe they're called a priori assumptions which I referred to already. But from a philosphic veiwpoint, once you have made your a priori assumptions (yours is subjectivism) you can't jump tracks and remain logical.
There are simply things that are not knowable, and arguing from any direction on this requires a commitment of faith to something, whether that faith is in science, god or something less defined.
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Hey HK,
"I thought Rue and Signy both had pretty narrow unsympathetic definitions of faith."
Well FINALLY! Someone included me on a list with Signy ! I'm cracking into an exclusive club ! 
Anyway, that faith definition thing is probably due to my RC upbringing. And it was given as an answer to me about all sorts of contradictory teachings -
why would god condemn all those people who never even found out about Jesus? why are evil people allowed to treat other people so badly they lose their faith and go to hell? if god knows everything ahead of time, and is all powerful , how can people have free will? etc
Well, you're just supposed to TRUST in god b/c even if it seems effed up to you, god is perfect and it's all good. Remember, Jesus loves little children. And, btw, don't you DARE question god again. OK? Now go in peace my child, and never question again, or you'll go to hell.
So that to me is how 'faith' is defined. As what you believe specifically when there is no proof.
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Quote:Certainly some religious people may believe their point of view is true, while all others are not. We typically refer to these people as “fundamentalist.” There aren’t any fundamentalists in this discussion. How does anyone know the creation myths are mutually exclusive? How does anyone know they are wrong? Or right? We only know two things here. (1) The universe exists. (2) We have no clue how or why. The only science on the topic seems to suggest that the universe may have been created or came into existence and has existed for some finite time. None of this rules out divine creation. Science doesn’t give us much in the way of an answer to these kinds of questions. It simply doesn't know.
Originally posted by SimonWho:
No, it's basic logic.
Quote:Sure. What ever you say Dalai Lama.
Originally posted by SimonWho:
Incidentally, I've just noticed (seriously) that I have a Buddhist Wheel of Life painting opposite my bed. Please do not take this as my endorsement of any religion, it was just given to me by my parents.
I have a Cherokee Dream Catcher over my bed. Given to me by a girl I dated some years ago who was half-Cherokee.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:After some consideration, I think my initial post was poorly worded, and I may have mischaracterized your position, as a result; please accept my apologies. I’m afraid too little free-time has made it difficult for me to keep up with this debate as well as I would have liked.
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
I hope you're not still referring to me with this, 'cause none of this applies to anything I've said. I agree with your assessment of science and absolute certainty.
If only I hadn’t spent so much time on the wonder women post, but one must keep one’s priorities.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Hey HK,
"I thought Rue and Signy both had pretty narrow unsympathetic definitions of faith."
Well FINALLY! Someone included me on a list with Signy ! I'm cracking into an exclusive club !
Anyway, that faith definition thing is probably due to my RC upbringing. And it was given as an answer to me about all sorts of contradictory teachings -
why would god condemn all those people who never even found out about Jesus? why are evil people allowed to treat other people so badly they lose their faith and go to hell? if god knows everything ahead of time, and is all powerful , how can people have free will? etc
Well, you're just supposed to TRUST in god b/c even if it seems effed up to you, god is perfect and it's all good. Remember, Jesus loves little children. And, btw, don't you DARE question god again. OK? Now go in peace my child, and never question again, or you'll go to hell.
So that to me is how 'faith' is defined. As what you believe specifically when there is no proof.
i just want to address your comments. proof, can mean a number of things... do we have proof that the north won the civil war? thats considered a fact...even though it is more a subjective historical obvservation. so what about all of the cultures of the ancient world..as far back as is documented, reporting of "gods" and superhuman entities and encounters? apparently none of those facts matter since Darwin came along; and i think their is a fair bit of hypocracy, since evolution is to rely on a belief that Man simply evolved from apes, period; considering all of our ancestors believed differently, why arent their belifs taken into account?
also, i assume youre referring to the bible...my question is, have you ever even read the thing? i study biblical literature constantly, and yet i fail to recognize these often sighted contradictions; nor do i just shut up and believe, and trust that these so called "contradictions" are truth..
-why does God allow people to do evil things and compromise their eternal destinies? first of all, Man sins out of his own freewill; if you dont believe in God, or Satan, then what causes you to do negetive things? thats right, you. the Bible, when it says God "destined" many to be his servants, is saying that God, being omnipresent, foreknew those who would come to have faith in him. Jesus says "there is more rejoicing in heaven over 1 sinner who repents then 99 righteous who do not need to", in other words..its never too late to change, but it is
ultimately up to the individual to make the choice; which some will never do
-God does not condemn those who have never heard of Jesus! here is a quote from Romans which explains(the Law is Gods word ie, ten commandments)
" If those who are not circumscised keep the laws reguirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? the one who is not circumicised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumscision, are a lawbreaker.
A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is cicumcision merely outward and physical. no, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. such a mans praise is not from men, but from God"
" All who sin apart from the law, will aslo perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law, will be judged by the law. for it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in Gods sight, but it is those who obey the Law who will be declared righteous. (indeed, when gentiles, who not have the law, do by nature things reguired by the law, they are a law for themsleves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the reguirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness)"
at the final judgement, when all the dead are raised, the book of life is opened and all men will be judged based on their merits...christians, atheists
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I am not a religious man. I am very much a thinking man. I am not comparing the two or saying that you are either one or the other. I think you could very well be one or the other, or both, or none of the above. The latter, I think, being the scariest people in the world. More often than not, I hesitate and miss out on lifes oppurtunites due to my excessive thinking. I think about everything. I think about what I do and what I don't do... and then I spend some time thinking about why I do or why I don't. I think I know everything, only to realize that I know nothing. Many nights have been spent thinking, rather than sleeping... I think I'm probaby too tired to get laid. I think it's probably been too long since I did that too. I think that the chances that there is a God of some sort are just as good as the chances that this is just all some gigantic accident. I think that Evolution and Creationism could hold hands and sing Koom-Bye-Ya together around a campfire if everybody wasn't so damn certain that their guess was right. I think that there is a lot to the whole Yin & Yang train of thought. I think that everything finds an equalibrium when the waves turn to ripples and eventually peter out into smooth perfection. I think that if there is a God of sorts, then there must be a Devil of sorts... I think that LIFE more readily imitates ART than vice versa. I think that Government and Society today are very much imitating Orwell's 1984 & and Revelations in the Good Book. I think that if there is a God and a Devil that George Bush is keeping the throne warm for the Antichrist. I think that the Real ID that he signed into action could very well be the MARK of the BEAST that is spoken of in the Bible. I think that Bush is not a religious man by any stretch, nor is he a thinking man.... and I think he will one day be remembered as the worst American President in history. I think it is sad that he is so deeply associated in the minds of the American public with Christianity. I think when people realzie what a truly bad man he was, Christianity stands a very good chance of being ridiculed even further and possibly destroyed. I think that's sad.
I am not a religious man.... but I do find a world devoid of religion to be a very scary place indeed.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:
since evolution is to rely on a belief that Man simply evolved from apes, period;
::sighs:
Evolution does not state that humans evolved from apes. It states that humans and apes had a common ancestor many hundreds of thousand, probably more like millions of years ago.
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http://richlabonte.net/tvvote
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Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:
considering all of our ancestors believed differently, why arent their belifs taken into account?
So, should we believe that the earth is flat, and is the center of the universe? Our ancestors believed that. Or, should we believe in dragons, since almost every culture on earth had myths and legends about them? And, I do mean dragons, not dinosaurs.
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http://richlabonte.net/tvvote
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which ancestors believed that the earth was flat? the greeks? the babylonians? the egyptians or sumerians? if youll recall, the ancients had a more intricate understanding of the universe then even our more recent ancestors. it was only a brief period during the middle ages that such beliefs were held, and it has become a stereotype of blind faith ever since; since the bible doesnt even say that the the earth is flat or the center of the universe.
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