Setting the Record Straight
POSTED BY: misbehaven
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 04:14
VIEWED: 3014
PAGE 2 of 2
Just going on record as not having attacked Jack Murtha.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Despite the few veterans on the Democratic side (all honorable men, I’m sure),
I think quite a few is more like it.
Quote:
the truth is that the military vote went +70% to Bush in the last election. And the Military vote consistently goes about three fourths to Republicans, not Democrats.
You're assuming the reason it did is entirely related to defense. I'll grant you that for a number of them it is; however, I'm sure that more than a few vote that way for other reasons: social conservatism, fiscal conservatism (although this doesn't hold true for Bush), or simply their own interests. So, there are a multitude of reasons why they may lean more to the Republican side.
"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
You’re grasping. Around two third - three fourths of the military claim to approve of Bush’s handling of the Iraq war. It's not a mystery why the military votes Republican.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Around two third - three fourths of the military claim to approve of Bush’s handling of the Iraq war.
Claim is right, because active duty personnel are not allowed to openly criticize the President. Perhaps you've noticed the numbers of high ranking officers (Generals in more than a few cases) that have publicly criticized the President and his administration since leaving the military.
"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Finn,
For the purpose of objectivity, I'll say that the information that the troops get is definitely biased, and so they're not going to have an objective choice.
That said, I'm not going to disagree with you. There have been some major SNAFUs, such as the attack on Fallujah, which was some Kerry had really pushed for, and specific torture scandals at Abu Ghraib, in particularly the part that didn't make it into our media, where some loose cannons outside the base tortured and killed some kids. And I'd say shock and awe, was over the top, and probably ruined the hearts and minds/rose petal parade idea. But overall this has been much more conservative a campaign than it would be if the democrats were leading it.
And conservative is good. The civilian casualties of this war are much less than they would be with the sort of gung ho, million boots on the ground, agressive territorial conquest that Kerry promised to wage, and that the democrats used in Vietnam and Korea.
Murtha's position is different then it's been painted. He wants to take a more conservative approach, solidifying what we have, redploying. I don't know if I agree with the specifics, but I agree that something on that order would seem helpful. I suspect that the sectarian violence which seems to be the main instability in Iraq could be lessened by a move towards if not a three state solution, a socio political divide along those lines, if we were in between them, I think they'd sit down and talk rather than fight us.
I can't help but notice that for all of rumsfeld's optimism, rumsfeld has been optimistic for a long time, and things continue to get worse re: the civil war. At a certain point, someone has to stand up and say "with all do respect, you're wrong, sir."
There are a lot of people, some of whom are democrats, though many are not, who have come up with ideas of ways to stablize iraq, but it doesn't happen in part because at the top of the chain of command, no one is listening. And if you missed this detail about the administration, you just haven't been paying attention.
I think also, it's necessary to not confuse the three positions democrats are taking. Murtha and various generals, etc., are disagreeing with strategic decisions in made in washington about how to stabilize Iraq. The democratic leadership would like to simply upscale the conflict, because that's what they're all about, and always have been. The peacenik crowd, which is the whipping boy of the democratic party, is all about no war at any cost, and so they want to pull out, and whatever happens in Iraq happens.
I guess if I'm saying anything it's that the whole situation seems to me to be more complicated than it is being portrayed in this debate
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Military polls on controversial topics have demonstrated a hesitation by active duty personnel to publicly expression opinions. This doesn’t necessarily invalidate poll results however; many polls have anomalies that must be accounted for. Reservists show the same level or higher level of support for the president’s handling of Iraq. And both active duty and reservist opinions are corroborated by the voting record. I consider my statement sound. Your point is a consideration, however.
Originally posted by misbehaven:
Claim is right, because active duty personnel are not allowed to openly criticize the President. Perhaps you've noticed the numbers of high ranking officers (Generals in more than a few cases) that have publicly criticized the President and his administration since leaving the military.
Except the part about the Generals; that’s media hype. The truth is that hundreds of Generals and Admirals continue to support the president and if they disagree, it is more likely to be an issue of strategy then substance. And strategy is always something that is hotly debated in the military, particularly by Generals.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME