Evil Firefly Haters
POSTED BY: Succatash
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 07:06
VIEWED: 55301
PAGE 16 of 20
Wow. Okay lordj, I think you wrapped things up effectively here. I read this thread awhile back but didn't get involved because frankly, it came down to a pissing contest with wz. However ill placed his "witty" article seemed, he had all of us effectively outgunned in terms of both calm and historical accuracy. So I'm glad to see there is a second "neutral, informed" perspective making an appearance because the more grownups we have the better.
Two things though, and I'll try to keep this short. First, I know the deleted scene you speak of; it was part of the original pilot episode (versus the one with the battle at the beginning). Totally right on the impression on that scene, the words were powerful and Ms. Torres did a nice job of hitting them home. But I think a similar, lesser impression can be taken from the current pilot. I think the Mal we see is there, but it isn't nearly as clear.
Second point mostly complicates things by throwing in the philosophy of pop culture and truth and cliches and archetypes into the mix. You say the Lost Cause was misrepresenting history, which is true. The show uses the Lost Cause because I believe you said it was simpler. Now comes the question related to what I think wz might say: Is the Lost Cause in the show a misrepresentation of what happened? If that is the case then the show is close to (if not exactly) what wz says it is (although the extent of his perceived dangers of such a thing seem much less powerful to me). But we have to remember, were talking about the realm of fiction, which misrepresents with simplicities and archetypes not for nefarous (sp?) reasons but for audience related ones.
Of course, if Mal is disillusioned with both sides like you also theorized, then it wouldn't make a difference at all, would it?
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Thank you for the compliment LordJ.
I would like to say that the "Lost Cause" theory is the moniker given to the misrepresentation of history by historians, both Northern & Southern, that tried to paint things in something other than the truth.
Where exactly the so called "Lost Cause" myth began, and by whom is lost to history. I would compare the "Lost Cause" to the, let's call it the "Righteous Cause" of the North. I find it fascinating that the rally cry of the North & Lincoln and his gov't became "Free the slaves". What is odd is that the war started in 1861, the Emancipation Proclomation was given in 1863, and freed as many slaves as me standing on a street corner giving the same speech. Read the Proclomation. No slaves were freed in any areas under control of the Union, only in the South, which the North could not enforce at the time the speech was given.
I would also like to point out that though slavery was abolished in that "land of the free" north of the Mason-Dixon line, many states of the Union had laws in effect as early as 1846 making it illegal for blacks to live in their states. Illinois, "The Land of Lincoln", was one of the first to pass this legislation. Many states forcibly ejected blacks to keep them outside their borders. So I ask, if they could not go South for fear of being enslaved, and were not wanted in the North, who were willing to fight "to free them", where were they to go? Lincoln had some very interesting ideas, like sending them to Africa, what he called "their native land" regardless of where they were born, to "colonize" on behalf of the U.S.
As for WZ having anyone "outgunned in terms of both calm and historical accuracy" I would have to say that is not clear to me, or I imagine others.
I am hoping the "the more grownups we have the better" was not directed at me, or my opinion, whether or not an individual agrees w/ it. It may not agree w/ the "popular" version of history, but the truth is never popular if it colors the victor in a less than squeaky clean light.
I agree w/ you LordJ on your observation of Mal and his disillusionment of both the Alliance and the Independants. I think he does not care for the bullying presence of the Alliance or their infringing on the rights and freedoms of the planets and people they do not lift a finger to help. I also think he lost connection w/ the Independants when they abandoned him, Zoe, and his unit in Serenity Valley. I would also say that giving up on the cause so many had died for was unforgivable to him. I would think that loss of trust and faith also caused him to lose his faith in god.
The bar scene in "Train Job" is Mal's little act of rebellion against the Alliance.
"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."
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Quote:*sigh*, this article has all the intellectual imaturity of that 'LoTRs Racist Tapestry' article from Indymedia.
Originally posted by Succatash:
Firefly Must Die
http://www.ratsalad.com/teevee/zaza_fireflymustdie.htm
Dad: What shall we watch tonight? (Removes pipe tobacco from cardigan)
Mom: How about Firefly? (Places bowl of popcorn on coffee table)
Little Bobbie: (Runs in from den) I love science fiction!
Little Susie: (Jumping up and down in excitement) Kaylee's my favorite character!
Dad: I hear she gets raped to death this week!
Mom: Not only that - she dies weeping!
Bobbie and Susie: Yay!!!!!!
I guess this kind of violent pornography is justified when you're a wunderkind who makes "philosophical dramas about the search for meaning."
Utter CRAP!
You know, you can take any work of art and impose a subtext onto it. Which is what this ... "writer"... has done. However, you must demonstrate your subtext.
To point out one outlandish deconstruction this 'writer' makes - (This guy didn't even come close) The silly gripe he brings up about rape is beyond reactionary and matches some of the vitriolic rants of Rush Limbaugh (on the pills, not vintage Rush). The word rape has been used twice in Firefly. Both times were in different contexts. Now, two disimilar examples do not an arguement make.
You can't accuse a story of a mysoginistic tone with two disconnected strands of dialog.
Well, I could rip this horribly childish first year academia another hole point by point but I just haven't the time. Let me just say that pseudo intellectual twits are a dime a dozen and I'm fully confident that the heart and soul of so wonderful a show as Firefly will overcome such trivialities.
Crips! There are LOTS of horribly unreasonable media brain goo out there. Reality TV itself isn't a target? I could hit that with a two ton hyperbole. Take that Enterprise show - a fascistic, racist free for all (did ya SEE the Fanatical Fundimentalist Suiside Bombers last week?). Why no one is writing articles about this horrorible, horrible show makes me wonder ...
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Quote:Hey, I really like your William Blake quote. Yes, I took out the Bub. I say Bub all the time in a casual way, but I didn't want you to take it rudely, plus, I thought you might be female.
Originally posted by Nur:
You took out the 'bub', whats up with that?
The "poor me" comment perhaps came out a bit too harshly, sorry. When I read your post I thought perhaps you have been discriminated against for ethnic or religious reasons. If you have been discriminated against, then you are a victim. A victim should protest and denounce the persecuters. Victims have a right to say "poor me." But Sarge isn't one of the racist persecuters, that's all I was trying to say.
Sarge has fooled me in the past by posting rude things but he is 100% just joking. Although, one time he said something sexual about my mother, and I think he was serious. Well, that's a story for another day.
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Getting back to that original "Stop the Firefly Movie Now" site; I ran across it by accident, and am actually glad I did, as a link the author had the odd courtesy to install helped me redicover fireflyfans.net;* I read a good deal of it, though not all, or even most (it soon became clear that the author was too impressed with his own cleverness, and was drowning his few semivalid points in self-stroking repetitive beef by-product).
However, I'm not here to discuss the literary or historical merits (or lack of same) of that site.
What its existence points out is that we browncoats had better be ready to deal with the issues it raises. Without getting into the complexities of the American Civil War (I'll save that for another posting),(or twenty), most people -- most American TV viewers -- prefer to think of history as a series of simple "Good Guys/Bad Guys" scenarios. And no war except possibly Vietnam pushes so many emotional hot buttons as the Civil war in the American zeitgeist.
Watching a few episodes, especially "Shindig", or "Our Mrs. Reynolds", would probably help dismiss the idea that the Independents are Confederates (except on the battlefield.) Assuming, that is, that Mal's attitudes are typical of Independents (and there's no reason not to.)
But we can't assume greater knowledge of Firefly is the perfect answer; the author of that original poison pen piece had a fairly decent familiarity with the program. (One wonders why?)
Point is, what I'm looking for is a one-sentence "High Concept" explanation to throw at the aforementioned "Linear/Binary" mindsets; best I've been able to come up with is "Yeah, it's like the Civil war, except that here the north was the side with the slaves."
Anybody got better?
*Footquote: "Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes." -- Frank Drebbin
RocketJock
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nur:Quote:
Hey Bub,
Relax, you have completely misunderstood Sarge. He is assuming that we all realize that blaming Allah for 911 is completely ridiculous.
You might have a right to play the "poor me" card but Sarge doesn't deserve the brunt of your frustration, someone else does.
SargeX and Succatash,
Well not being a mind reader mistakes can be made. Considering the fact that its dangerous to assume that anyone is going to understand exactly what he meant I'm woman enough to appologize. I have to say though that your "poor me" comment was a bit of a stretch, I don't recall feeling sorry for myself at all while writing that. Respect though, must be given for you finding out that I'm from Canada then cleverly speaking to me in the X-Men dialect of Canadian English.
Cheers Bub,
Nur
Those who restrain desire, do so because thiers is weak enough to be restrained.
-William Blake
O my Lord! bestow wisdom on me, and join me with the righteous.
-Qur'an [26:83]
Just wondering but what is "the X-Men dialect of Canadian English"?
You're gonna come with us...
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Quote:
Originally posted by CaptainTightPants:Quote:
Originally posted by Nur:Quote:
Hey Bub,
Relax, you have completely misunderstood Sarge. He is assuming that we all realize that blaming Allah for 911 is completely ridiculous.
You might have a right to play the "poor me" card but Sarge doesn't deserve the brunt of your frustration, someone else does.
SargeX and Succatash,
Well not being a mind reader mistakes can be made. Considering the fact that its dangerous to assume that anyone is going to understand exactly what he meant I'm woman enough to appologize. I have to say though that your "poor me" comment was a bit of a stretch, I don't recall feeling sorry for myself at all while writing that. Respect though, must be given for you finding out that I'm from Canada then cleverly speaking to me in the X-Men dialect of Canadian English.
Cheers Bub,
Nur
Those who restrain desire, do so because thiers is weak enough to be restrained.
-William Blake
O my Lord! bestow wisdom on me, and join me with the righteous.
-Qur'an [26:83]
Just wondering but what is "the X-Men dialect of Canadian English"?
You're gonna come with us...
Have you ever read the X-Men comics Cap'n?
Wolverine is from Canada and always calls people 'Bub'. Its kind of like his 'Canadian thing'. While other Canadians get stereotyped with beer and hockey, Canadian X-Men get funny words that I don't think I've ever heard anyone in Canada use. Now I do live in the big city, but my parents are from small little towns as are most of my relatives who I visit frequently, maybe people do say it but I've never heard them.
I think he does it in the cartoon too, but I can't for the life of me remember if he ever says it in the movies.
Hope that explains it.
Those who restrain desire, do so because thiers is weak enough to be restrained.
-William Blake
O my Lord! bestow wisdom on me, and join me with the righteous.
-Qur'an [26:83]
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Ah!!! I see. I have read a few of the comics years ago. My kids were into them and watched the cartoons too. I never noticed the Canadian language thing in the comics but did realize that Wolverine was from the GWN. I don't remember if he said it in the movies either though. My girls might but they are already in bed.
Where are you from? I have friends up in Toronto, and maybe someday if I'm really good, I may get to move up there. 
No, really! 
You're gonna come with us...
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Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:Quote:Hey, I really like your William Blake quote. Yes, I took out the Bub. I say Bub all the time in a casual way, but I didn't want you to take it rudely, plus, I thought you might be female.
Originally posted by Nur:
You took out the 'bub', whats up with that?
The "poor me" comment perhaps came out a bit too harshly, sorry. When I read your post I thought perhaps you have been discriminated against for ethnic or religious reasons. If you have been discriminated against, then you are a victim. A victim should protest and denounce the persecuters. Victims have a right to say "poor me." But Sarge isn't one of the racist persecuters, that's all I was trying to say.
Sarge has fooled me in the past by posting rude things but he is 100% just joking. Although, one time he said something sexual about my mother, and I think he was serious. Well, that's a story for another day.
Ahhh. Well I am a girl, but its all good, and no offence was taken. Sarge and I had a little chat, and we (I) understand eachother (what he really ment) much better now (hopefully I'm not being presumptuous in saying that).
Yeah, you gotta love Blake. He's shiny.
Those who restrain desire, do so because thiers is weak enough to be restrained.
-William Blake
Every great idea starts out as blasphemy.
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