Serenity is 'fascist'?
POSTED BY: goat
UPDATED: Friday, September 1, 2006 07:13
VIEWED: 16002
PAGE 3 of 7
Quote:
Originally posted by ECAmber:
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Countries like Germany and Italy, who also faced similar hardships economically were not so lucky and fell to dictatorships.
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But the Alliance, Parliment (which is never said to be in power through a voting system), the Academy and even the Comapanion Guild do seem fascist to some small degree.
I don't have really anything to add to the main debate, both sides seems to have been well covered however it should be pointed out that the nazi party were democratically voted in so there's no reason the current Alliance weren't.
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Aftermath: The Renegade:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=12456 - Prologue.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=12503 - Chapter 1 - The Moon of Talgos.
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Quote:
Originally posted by micjwelch:
The reason he called it conservative is because it states clearly that governments should not interfere too much with people's lives. BTW - That is what us crazy "Right Wing" people believe. Let the people govern themselves.
Unless it has to do with sexual freedom, medical marijuana, stem cell or climate change research, gay marriage, state and local education decisions, communications privacy, or abortion, where the Federal Nanny State is obviously needed to keep us in line. :P
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I don't need a gorram back-spaceship driver!!!
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Quote:
Originally posted by ECAmber:
and even the Comapanion Guild do seem fascist to some small degree.
The Companion Guild? How so? :)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:Quote:
Originally posted by micjwelch:
The reason he called it conservative is because it states clearly that governments should not interfere too much with people's lives. BTW - That is what us crazy "Right Wing" people believe. Let the people govern themselves.
Unless it has to do with sexual freedom, medical marijuana, stem cell or climate change research, gay marriage, state and local education decisions, communications privacy, or abortion, where the Federal Nanny State is obviously needed to keep us in line. :P
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I don't need a gorram back-spaceship driver!!!
Like I said, I don't want this to be a debate. But any government should put SOME limits on people. The reason we can vote is so that WE can decide what those limits are. I'm all for putting all those things you mentioned to a vote.
"We may experience some slight turbulence, and then... explode."
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Quote:
Originally posted by bad2verse:
I think the author ought to at least know what a fascist really IS before using the word.. they can't decide between the Webster definition, or the popular definition from Mussolini.
'Prolly the same folks that said the (Butchered) movie "Starship Troopers" was about fascism (It HAD to be, they wore tall boots and trench coats!)
Actually Starship Troopers is set in a totaltarian fascist state (only citizens can vote or have kids, and the quickest way to become a citizen is to enlist). Check out the book if you want to go further...
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For every battle honour, a thousand heroes die along, unremembered and unsung...
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Quote:
Originally posted by micjwelch:
Like I said, I don't want this to be a debate. But any government should put SOME limits on people. The reason we can vote is so that WE can decide what those limits are. I'm all for putting all those things you mentioned to a vote.
If you don't want a political debate, then you shouldn't make inflammatory and one-sided claims about those you disagree with:
Quote:
Originally posted by micjwelch:
That is what us crazy "Right Wing" people believe. Let the people govern themselves. I don't want to turn this into a political debate, but the Left Wing wants the government to be involved in everything.
You could switch the words "Right" and "Left" from your rhetoric and it would apply just as well. The Left Wing wants freedom and the Right Wing is for government intrusion and hand-outs:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040202-582330,00.
html
http://www.conservativenannystate.org/cns.html#1
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I don't need a gorram back-spaceship driver!!!
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Quote:
Originally posted by Teachdaire:
Actually Starship Troopers is set in a totaltarian fascist state (only citizens can vote or have kids, and the quickest way to become a citizen is to enlist). Check out the book if you want to go further...
Oh I'm VERY familiar with Heinlein.. I have an autographed Hardback copy of most of his books (Showing my age now ;)
The Book was MUCH different, and explained his reasoning, and MEANING, of a "Citizen".
While I don't agree with all of his views, when you have a significant number of people that Vote for their leaders based on "Looks" or "Popularity" or "Just to keep the other party out of office", you can't really fault his logic of only allowing "voters" to come from the pool of people that have placed their bodies between danger and their loved ones...
In the book, the life of a non-citizen is MUCH easier than the life of a citizen, and non-citizens have all the same rights, EXCEPT that they can't interfere with the political proccess. The only people allowed to hold political office (or vote) are informed and have PERSONAL knowledge of conditions around the 'verse... Not just pablum fed to them by a biased media.
Basically, they have their own, informed, opinions, and believe in them enough to go through the trials of becoming a "Citizen".
Heinlein also said that no nation that depended on a conscript military deserved to endure.. if your people won't fight because they believe in the cause, then it ain't a good enough cause to fight over..
He's got some valid points, and that's just ONE of his (many) possible solutions to the mess most nations seem to be in today.
And I have to say that it's a shame that a person's vote (Who has put their life and body on the line for their country, voluntarily) has the same weight as some airhead's that simply likes the other fellow's clothing choice.
Again, The MOVIE makes it out to be a totaltarian fascist state, the BOOK does Not (Which is why I said the movie butchered his book).
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..but eatin people alive, where does THAT get fun?
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Quote:
Originally posted by micjwelch:
Like I said, I don't want this to be a debate. But any government should put SOME limits on people. The reason we can vote is so that WE can decide what those limits are. I'm all for putting all those things you mentioned to a vote.
As long as it doesn't affect me, personally, or my family, it's really none of my business what someone else does... However, I would extend that to say "As long as what someone is doing does not DIRECTLY affect the lives of others in a negative way, then it's none of our business what they do"..
I say "Directly" because EVERYTHING gets intertwined if you go down enough links... IE: "the guy not wearing a helmet on a motorcycle may make my insurance rates go up".. but they're going to go up regardless, so if he wants to feel the breeze in his hair, fine by me, doesn't DIRECTLY affect me, none of my business.
It's HARD to learn that what we "personally" don't like, doesn't mean that it's wrong... And we shouldn't force our views onto others.
Someone on another site the other day (Walter Williams) said something I think is very true,
It goes something like this:
'Joe Busybody sees Walter Williams in a restaurant having too many biscuits with gravy, and is concerned about Walter Williams health, as well as the possible effects on insurance rates of people like Walter Williams eating too many biscuits and getting high cholesterol.
IF Joe Busybody comes over to Walter E. Williams table and tries to take that biscuit away from him, he's going to get punched square in the nose;)
Joe Busybody doesn't have the moral courage to do something like that PERSONALLY...instead he goes to the mighty Fedgov and tries to get a law passed regulating how many biscuits Walter E Williams can eat.
Williams' conclusion: If you don't feel sufficiently outraged by someone's behavior to try to stop it PERSONALLY, or if you lack the moral courage to do so, don't take the coward's way out and try to get the Fedgov to do your dirty work for you!'
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..but eatin people alive, where does THAT get fun?
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To add a German view (at least, we have some experience with "fashism" ...)
I agree with what was said on this board: the aliance is shown as a system bordering to fashism, or rather totalitarism. There is no clear definition of fashism, but it should involve a "lead figure" and a "nationalist" feeling about it. Both is not there in Firefly. The Alliance wants to have everyone under one rule. (Hitler wanted to kill or enslave anybody, who was not what he considered "German".)
On the othet hand, I don't see any voting going on at Firefly (there was an election shown in Babylon 5, I remember ...), and even if: there can be voting in totalitarian regimes - just that there is only one party, you can (and have to ) vote for.(Russia, German Democratic Republic)
But another thought:
From Star Treck, viewers are used to indentify with the "Humans" and their government. "The Federation of Planets", that's in fact the "United states", that's the "we". I have the airy feeling, this is one of the reasons, why Firefly (and also Babylon 5) had such a hard time. In both series, the main characters separate from the government, the government is "bad", humans are "bad" (whereas in Star Treck, if somebody is "bad", it's always an alien - or a human "posessed" by an alien). These are thoughts, not many people have the guts to spend their evening-after-work with, I guess.
I a way, I think Firefly can be seen as a political show, not fashist but, on the contrary, critizising a government, which thinks it knows, what is best for everyone (even for people not living in the country, it governs).
Esther
Love my captain!
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If only people did that, it would stop so many soccer mums who haven't the 'balls' to stop their kids doing something going and trying to get the government to stop it (I say this as I personally know the guys 'responsible' for the 'hot coffee' incident I'm sure many of you have heard of, but that's an entirely different matter).
Edit: this was supposed to quote BAD2VERSE :/
Edit 2: sorry if I seem a bit off-topic, I'm just trying to avoid political debates.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aftermath: The Renegade:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=12456 - Prologue.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=12503 - Chapter 1 - The Moon of Talgos.
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