Genocide. ...Who Decides?
POSTED BY: USBrowncoat
UPDATED: Monday, August 21, 2006 00:46
VIEWED: 4119
PAGE 3 of 3
dreamtrove, yours is a magnificent post.
______________________________
I cannot abide useless people.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:And people used to say the same thing about Hitler, and they said the same thing about Stalin. The spin is to ignore history and claim that since you talked to someone that means you know what Iran’s intent is. You don’t. What I know, for a fact, is that Muslim states have been threatening to wipe Israel off the map for 50 years and they’ve waged 5 consecutive wars to that end. Some people want to play games and pretend like Iran intends no threat towards Israel. My professional opinion is that those people are either ignorant of the issue or they are not objective.
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Finn,
I have talked to Iranians, read Ahmadinejad's speeches in full. I know this is not the agenda. A few malicious translations make things look much worse then they are, and are designed to do so. I'm am almost completely certain that you are perfectly aware of all of this.
And genocide is not a loaded term. It’s a term with a meaning that does not apply to Coalition forces in the Middle East. To commit genocide you must intend to exterminate a people. That intent (nor the threat) does not exist by Coalition forces in the Middle East, and the only way to make it “exist” is to pretend that the intent is being expressed in secret. I call bullshit on that. But the threat of genocide by some Muslim states towards Israel over the past ~50 years is well expressed by their own words and well documented, and suggested by their own wars. Now they’ve never actually committed genocide towards Israelis, but then the Israelis never gave them the opportunity either. However, they sure as hell said they wanted to and they sure as hell waged the wars to do it. In the end, the only way any of us could know for sure if the intent of Tehran or the other Arab states was genocide of Jews is to let them do it and see.
I know that many Iranians would object to such actions against an Israeli population, so the threat doesn't necessarily translate into intent, even given the opportunity, but the threat is most definitely there and potentially real. However, the threat of genocide by Iranians towards Iraelis is really a moot point, right now.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Finn,
Simple gut reaction. I never claimed to be a military strategist, I think I put myself forward as a small tomato farmer. I look at is and call it as I see it, and I think I've got a pretty sharp eye:
Iran is not germany. This is a spin which uses the simple genetic, regional and economic parallels. Sure, it has the role of the "Mid East's Germany." But this is not an analysis, it's spin. It takes nothing of Iranian history or culture into account. It's a simple trick to make the feeble minded click a parallel. Try it on them, but don't try it on me, it won't work.
The real Germany here is Israel, which is not an anti-semitic remark, but a statement about the govt. of Israel, which has acted remarkably like the govt. of Germany. I think of us as the Axis Japan. Physically outside the arena, but aiding in the conflict, and slowly but surely steering of course into dangerous ideological waters.
Iran's role is more similar to that of England or Russia. Afraid of being the next target of the expansion, it seeks to pre-empt that with a defensive plan.
I don't buy that there's a serious threat, I've seen a couple of mistranslations which the govt. of Iran, and Ahmadinejad himself, have denied having said. I say again, I'm not dumb, I know what's going on here, I know that the Iranians are very scared, and I know that they are also not dumb. In fact, I'm continuously impressed by how shrewd they are, esp. when compared with the responses of Saddam Hussein. I credit the Iranian system of a more capitalistic economy and a govt which allows more open debate, as sources of the more intelligent decisions. Saddam's my way or the highway govt. and economy let only his decisions reign, and he was unable to outsmart the US, which allowed the invasion to continue. Iran has kept the world guessing, and delayed a conflict which had first been planned to set in motion in '04, a full two years now. During that time, they have undoubtedly worked out some sweet contingency defense deals.
It's not as simple as good guys, bad guys. I know I see it, and you should know I see it, and I sure hope you see it, because you're the one employed in the field of me, you and everyone else.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I'm sorry, but I'm not sure you know what you’re talking about. I think, you need to learn some history before any continued discussion in this area could be deemed as constructive. I suggest reading up on the Arab-Israeli wars.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
I'm sorry, but I'm not sure you know what you’re talking about. I think, you need to learn some history before any continued discussion in this area could be deemed as constructive. I suggest reading up on the Arab-Israeli wars.
What an arrogant attitude.
Of course, I have read the history at some length, some length perhaps more than you. It scares me to think that our military strategy is going off half cocked like this.
I'm certainly aware of the israeli arab conflict and the role which hamas and hezbollah played in that conflict. I'm also most certainly aware that, as seen by the defenders, ie., those who lived on the land initially, and have nowhere else to go, that the Israeli beachhead has slowly been growing and is dead set on growing at the expense of the local inhabitants, who unlike the israelis whose families largely left comfortable wealthy societies to settle israel, the palestinians are poor and destitute and often find themselves in defacto slavery when they leave.
I am by no means defending the actions of the terrorists against Israel, certainly not. But I am most certainly calling a spade a spade.
This is how it is, and there really ain't no two ways about it. Now how to solve the situation, that's another matter. I don't think that the current Israeli attitude will solve the situation, honestly, I think it will likely lead to a retaliatory nuclear strike on Tel Aviv, or increase the chances of that inevitability. I think that arrogant hawkish analyses of the sort our administration and their sport, which you defend, will percipitate that conclusion, which is most certainly in the best interests of no one but the Nazis.
Running an all out offensive against a population which outnumbers them 100 to 1 on the ground of "they don't have nukes" is not only risky, it's doomed. Not only are arabs in possession of nuclear weapons, the Israelis have no counter targets in the event of a nuclear war. How do you nuke Al Qaeda? an amorphous organization spread over an area four times the size of europe?
I think the whole situation is spinning dangerously out of control, and from any perspective, this is bad.
Whether you think that 'arabs are always wrong' and 'israelis are always right' which is certainly how your position comes across, surely you can see the logic of this evolution.
This is chucking dynamite into the gas tank and hoping that it douses the fuse.
Good luck with that.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:It’s not an arrogant attitude; I’ve just already heard your side of the story. I know that it was all Israel’s fault, but History provides a more balanced, and in many ways different, explanation, and I think you should consider it.
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
What an arrogant attitude.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME