Hollywood vs. Terrorism

POSTED BY: Skywalken
UPDATED: Monday, August 21, 2006 23:06
VIEWED: 5166
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AURAPTOR

Sunday, August 20, 2006 10:25 AM

Quote:
AURap, can't you see that the Administration doesn't take the threat of terrorism seriously either? Why would they leave our borders wide open if they did?

(Seriously, I haven't read your rationalization for that one anywhere. Do you have one?)

And I suppose you blame the local governments for everything that went wrong in New Orleans, but you gotta admit that FIMA and DHS were pretty ineffectual in any event, don'cha?

Your fears are simply being played on while our government keeps sinking all our money into their war of choice. Does that seem right to you?

HKCavalier

Agree w/ ya on the border problem. W has failed miserably in addressing this issue, and I think I know why. Big business. Or maybe he just really likes tacos, and thinks closing the border would jeopardize his getting his quota? Who knows.

As for Katrina, there's no question where most of the blame lies. The Army Corps of Engineers. It was their levee system which failed. Studies from LSU show that the foundations for the levee systems which failed weren't dug down even 1/2 as far into the ground as needed.

The levees failed before the tops were breached. ( read that last line again and let it sink in for a moment )

If the levees live up to anywhere near their expectations, there's no flooding. No flooding, this event is a far smaller disaster than it turned out to be.

The local Gov't , Ray "Chocolate" Nagin and Gov. Blanco dropped the ball big time. No effort what so ever was made by the Mayor to implement his own plan of evacuation. The photo of hundreds of school buses just sittting in flood waters, not being used in the least, should be shown every time this topic comes up.

The Fed's typical bureaucratic method was on a full pathetic display here. False news reports and interrupted communications services down there made it extremely difficult to know exactly what was going on, which made matters worse. More 'on site' authority is needed, but that's just not how the Feds work. There have been comparisons made between the Fed's response to the hurricanes in FL and Katrina, and even with the far worse destruction of Katrina, FEMA showed up in about the same amount of time, or sooner than in FL. Florida, where the BROTHER of the President is Governor.

And sadly, most forget that Mississippi got hit worse than New Orleans.( That's a story you won'jt find in Spike Lee's movie ) Entire neighborhoods were simply erased from the map. Towns blown away. This was a major natural event, and folks are acting as if they have some sort of right to have everything fixed by the Fed Gov't in a few weeks. Sorry, but that's not how the real world works.

As for my 'fears', let me tell you about that. I'm concerned that a giant buraeucracy like our Gov't moves on a glacial scale, at a time when we need quick action and clear thinking. The threat is very real, but could be handled in a far more effective manner.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

AURAPTOR

Sunday, August 20, 2006 11:35 AM

I'm kinda disappointed that Adam, or any of the other BDH's names don't show up on this list.

What ever their views, I think this is one list that everyone should agree on. Even if agreeing means your name appears on a list which includes Rupert Murdoch.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

CITIZEN

Sunday, August 20, 2006 12:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
As for Katrina, there's no question where most of the blame lies. The Army Corps of Engineers. It was their levee system which failed. Studies from LSU show that the foundations for the levee systems which failed weren't dug down even 1/2 as far into the ground as needed.

The levees failed before the tops were breached. ( read that last line again and let it sink in for a moment )

If the levees live up to anywhere near their expectations, there's no flooding. No flooding, this event is a far smaller disaster than it turned out to be.

Under the full realisation I'm probably going to be called a pinhead, moron or idiot for bothering to reply:

It's my understanding that the levees were not designed to withstand a hurricane as powerful as Katrina, and that the army corps of engineers wanted to improve the levee system, but Bush wouldn't authorise the funds necessary (only authorising 20%).

Blaming the Army Corps of Engineers is worse than blaming the New Orleans city founders for building a city below sea level.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

AURAPTOR

Sunday, August 20, 2006 1:33 PM

Quote:
It's my understanding that the levees were not designed to withstand a hurricane as powerful as Katrina, and that the army corps of engineers wanted to improve the levee system, but Bush wouldn't authorise the funds necessary (only authorising 20%).

Blaming the Army Corps of Engineers is worse than blaming the New Orleans city founders for building a city below sea level.

Your understanding is wrong. While Katrina was a Cat5 storm at one point, it veered East ( away from N.0. )and dropped somewhat in severity in the late hours before landfall. Mississippi bore the brunt of the storm. The levees were built ( initially) to withstand a direct hit from a Cat3 storm. The levees failed the glancing blow by Katrina, and surveys of the construction show why. The Corps of Engineers screwed up on the initial construction, and not by just a small margin. The window dressing improvements that you claim were so drastically cut back by the Bush admin wouldn't have done a damn thing. These problems go back DECADES and are more a tale of waste, graft and greed on the part of the state/local gov't than anything. Louisiana, and N.O. are legendary for the corruption in Gov't, going back to Huey Long ( 1920's - 1930's ) and before.

As for the Army Corps of Engineers, New Orleans might be their greatest boondoggle. In and effort to help the region economically, The New Orleans Industrial Canal was cut through the lowlands between the river and Lake Pontchartrain. Sadly, $$ has been spent on this project even though barge traffic is on the decline. $$ which should have been used to reinforce suspect levees.

Oh, and to make matters worse, the city of N.O. is actually sinking. The reason? The very canal the which was suppose to give it an economic boost.

So, to steal a quote - It's worse than you know . And it really is. And much more complicated too. Sorry, but for you or anyone to quip that all this can be laid at the feet of Bush, or even his administration, is quite simply ignorance on a colossal level. I have no need for name calling. It is what it is.

That ain't hatin', that's just factin'.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

CITIZEN

Sunday, August 20, 2006 2:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
So, to steal a quote - It's worse than you know . And it really is. And much more complicated too. Sorry, but for you or anyone to quip that all this can be laid at the feet of Bush, or even his administration, is quite simply ignorance on a colossal level. I have no need for name calling. It is what it is.

You just called me ignorant; considering you called me ignorant for saying something I wasn't even saying is pretty funny.

The only person simplifying the situation is you fella, "It was all the fault of the Army Corps of Engineers!" isn't gross over simplification? Please.

YOU claim the levees didn't experience forces that exceeded what they were designed to experience, but don't back it up. Furthermore it was well known that the levees had fallen into disrepair and needed to be repaired in order to fulfil what they were designed for, let alone that experts also believed that they needed to be updated, for instance:

Quote:
Martin McCann a civil and environmental engineering professor at Stanford University
"As further development goes on behind levees, over decades you need to revisit the question and say, are those levees providing us the protection that we wanted?"
"The answer is probably no, because the exposure is probably greater. The number of people and the valuable property is greater."

And it's far from my claim (as you so cynically dress it) that the Bush Admin cut funding, for instance:

Quote:
New Orleans CityBusiness Feb. 16, 2004
The $750 million Lake Pontchartrain and Vicinity Hurricane Protection project is another major Corps project, which remains about 20% incomplete due to lack of funds, said Al Naomi, project manager. That project consists of building up levees and protection for pumping stations on the east bank of the Mississippi River in Orleans, St. Bernard, St. Charles and Jefferson parishes.

The Lake Pontchartrain project is slated to receive $3.9 million in the president's 2005 budget. Naomi said about $20 million is needed.

"The longer we wait without funding, the more we sink," he said. "I've got at least six levee construction contracts that need to be done to raise the levee protection back to where it should be (because of settling). Right now I owe my contractors about $5 million. And we're going to have to pay them interest."

You are trying to simplify the whole thing ridiculously, blaming it entirely on the Army Corps of Engineers which makes about as much sense as blaming the whole thing on NO city founders for founding a settlement below sea level. I merely said that Bush cut founding for upgrades that may have helped, which in your rabid desire to protect your messiah some how translated in your head to me blaming everything that's ever gone wrong in the world on Bush.

Well while your apportioning blame for everything to the Army Corps of Engineers and attempting to stone the heretics that mention Bush's name maybe you'll realise how colossally ignorant that position sounds.

That's not hating, that's just actually including facts in my post and responding to your post in exactly the same tone as you responded to mine. I await your escalation.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

AURAPTOR

Sunday, August 20, 2006 4:07 PM

First of all, you are ignornt. You did say that Bush was to blame for all this, only funding 20% of what was alloted for repairs of the levees. That's horseshit. Then you claim I called you ignorant for NOT making the very point you DID make, you've painted yourself in such a corner that you're sounding like some OTHER trolls we see here.

You want me to back up my claims ? About what, the decades of graft and sqwandering of Fed $$ by the state of Louisiana? Sorry, I'm not in the mood to whip up a term paper on the issue. Google it your own damn self. Then you invert the amount of money YOU say was underfunded by the Bush administration. First you said it was only 20% of the total, THEN your post says " which remains about 20% incomplete due to lack of funds, said Al Naomi, project manager."

Quote:

It's my understanding that the levees were not designed to withstand a hurricane as powerful as Katrina, and that the army corps of engineers wanted to improve the levee system, but Bush wouldn't authorise the funds necessary (only authorising 20%)

(It's actually 80% complete, but so what ? ) Bush was in office starting in Jan. of 2001. These projects have been going on for 40 years! And are EXPECTED to go on for several more! Even before the Katrina disaster. Just gloss over the facts, pal.It makes life SOoooo much easier,huh?

From June, 2003.... The design of the original levees, which dates to the 1960s, was based on rudimentary storm modeling that, it is now realized, might underestimate the threat of a potential hurricane. Even if the modeling was adequate, however, the levees were designed to withstand only forces associated with a fast-moving hurricane that, according to the National Weather Service’s Saffir-Simpson scale, would be placed in category 3. If a lingering category 3 storm—or a stronger storm, say, category 4 or 5—were to hit the city, much of New Orleans could find itself under more than 20 ft (6 m) of water.
- Civil Engineering Mag. http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/ceonline03/0603feat.html

And speaking of Al Naomi, here's what Civil Engineering had to say about him in the June 2003 article...." Naomi was in high school when the Corps began constructing the levees bordering Lake Pontchartrain. And he will probably retire long before the barriers around the southern part of the city are completed—in 2018 if all goes as expected. In the next few years he will also oversee the beginnings of three Corps levees that are now being constructed around less populated areas outside of New Orleans: Venice, Grand Isle, and Larose. About $900 million has already been spent on Louisiana’s hurricane protection program, and before the current projects are complete more than $1.4 billion will be required. " There is no simplified answer, my friend. But it's you who keeps trying to find one.

Oh, and FYI...." December 2005

U.S. Water News Online

NEW ORLEANS -- Government engineers performing sonar tests at the site of a major levee failure found exactly what independent investigators said they would -- that steel reinforcements barely went more than half as deep as they were supposed to, a U.S. Army Corps of Engineers official said.

"We've come up with similar results" to those from earlier tests performed by a team of Louisiana State University engineers, said Walter Baumy, the Corps' chief engineer for the New Orleans District.

Baumy said the Corps now intends to pull out pieces of the remaining wall along each edge of the breach at the 17th Street Canal to verify the results of the sonar tests. The canal itself is now mostly dry at the site of the breach, with temporary walls holding back water from each side, allowing for excavation.

Baumy said the Corps remains unable to explain the disparity between their 1993 design documents and what they've actually found. " http://www.uswaternews.com/archives/arcpolicy/5corpsays12.html

Learn before you post, son.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't

RIGHTEOUS9

Sunday, August 20, 2006 4:37 PM

Cool,

so we're all in agreement. When people with public visibility care about a cause, they should use that visibility to support it.

That doesn't make their opinions particularly valid just because they have a platform from which to be heard, but the fact that they are celebrities does not invalidate them any moreso.

So rather than to continue to use the rhetoric of discrediting because of profession, rather than because of what is being said, we can finally retire that old O'reily/Limbaugh(who are basically 2 lame celebrities) rant.

RIGHTEOUS9

Sunday, August 20, 2006 4:43 PM

I have no reason to believe that the levies would have been fully upgraded by now, had Bush not cut funding to them. Regardless, in the wake of such a disaster, can't you see that levee funding should have been a priority, and yet again, this administration's are out of wack? Obviously New Orleans needed that funding. Obviously the threat was clear and present - so he cuts the funding?

And none of that excuses the reaction to the disaster. Apparently everybody in the white house was getting their Katrina information from one obscure paper that said "New Orleans dodged a bullet." They aren't in contact with anyone down there? Give me a fucking break.

AURAPTOR

Sunday, August 20, 2006 5:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
I have no reason to believe that the levies would have been fully upgraded by now, had Bush not cut funding to them. Regardless, in the wake of such a disaster, can't you see that levee funding should have been a priority, and yet again, this administration's are out of wack? Obviously New Orleans needed that funding. Obviously the threat was clear and present - so he cuts the funding?

And none of that excuses the reaction to the disaster. Apparently everybody in the white house was getting their Katrina information from one obscure paper that said "New Orleans dodged a bullet." They aren't in contact with anyone down there? Give me a fucking break.

You have no reason to believe that the Levees would have been complete 15 yrs from now, which is when the Army Corps of Engineers EXPECTED all this to be finished. But post Katrina findings show that even WITH these additions, the levees STIL WOULD HAVE FAILED! What about THAT arne't you getting ?

It seems you want to excuse the reaction of the state and local leaders, while holding Bush et al at fault. Unfuckingbelievable. Ray "Chocolate City" Nagin ignored his OWN damn evacuation plan, and allowed for this constituents to drown. HE DID IT! Not Bush. Gov.Blanco sat on her hands and debated whether or not to allow Bush to send in help, fearful of how 'things might look '... a GOP President coming to the aid of a woman Democrat Gov. Her failure to act quickly cost lives.

Funny how a thread on Hollywood vs Terrorism has become a sqwabble over Hurricane Katrina

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

CITIZEN

Sunday, August 20, 2006 5:26 PM

And there's the escalation.

Quote:
You did say that Bush was to blame for all this, only funding 20% of what was alloted for repairs of the levees. That's horseshit. Then you claim I called you ignorant for NOT making the very point you DID make, you've painted yourself in such a corner that you're sounding like some OTHER trolls we see here.

No I said Bush cut spending to only 20%, I.e. that there were more factors at work than just "It’s all the Army Corps of Engineers fault!" which was your claim which was horseshit. And Bush did cut the spending, that's not horseshit, it’s fact. I defy you to prove I said this is all Bush's fault, you can't because I never said that, but in your rabid desire to defend your messiah you saw the name Bush and went off to stone the heretic.

And before we start down the road of Troll accusation remember who is the only person here throwing around personal insults (you) a known troll tactic, and accusations of trolling (again you) another troll tactic.

Quote:
Even before the Katrina disaster. Just gloss over the facts, pal.It makes life SOoooo much easier,huh?

I suspect you don't use this tone when talking to people IRL, if you did you'd never be out of hospital after the endless string of hidings you'd receive (note I'm not threatening you, just pointing out how much of an arsehole you sound here (also I’m not calling you an arsehole, I'm saying this makes you sound like one)).

I'll say it again. I NEVER said, nor implied that it was all Bush's fault. YOUR reading of my statements is wrong. If you continue to argue against the strawman you've created you're just going to end up sounding like a fool.

Quote:
The design of the original levees, which dates to the 1960s, was based on rudimentary storm modeling that, it is now realized, might underestimate the threat of a potential hurricane. Even if the modeling was adequate, however, the levees were designed to withstand only forces associated with a fast-moving hurricane that, according to the National Weather Service’s Saffir-Simpson scale, would be placed in category 3. If a lingering category 3 storm—or a stronger storm, say, category 4 or 5—were to hit the city, much of New Orleans could find itself under more than 20 ft (6 m) of water.

You do realise this supports what I was saying right? That the specifications didn’t protect against a hurricane like Katrina, right?

Thanks.

Quote:
There is no simplified answer, my friend. But it's you who keeps trying to find one.

Back to the strawman. Lets clarify:
You: It's the Army Corp of Engineers. Implying the situation is as simple as the ACoE did it.
Me: Bush cut funding needed to repair and upgrade the levees. Implying that it's not as simple as "the ACoE did it".
You: Bush isn't the Antichrist, STONE him KILL the heretic!
Me (thinking): What the fuck is this guy on?

You say "it's all the ACoE's fault", you simplify it down to that. I say it's not that simply and I'm the one simplifying things? Are you delusional or does Bush love removes one's critical thinking skills?

This obviously needs to be said several times before you get it through your thick skull:
I NEVER said it was all Bush's fault; I'm not the one simplifying the situation.

Simplifying it would be too said “It’s all their fault”. So simplifying the situation would be saying something like “It’s all the fault of the Army Corps of Engineers”. BTW what was it you said again?

Quote:
Government engineers performing sonar tests at the site of a major levee failure found exactly what independent investigators said they would -- that steel reinforcements barely went more than half as deep as they were supposed to, a U.S. Army Corps of Engineers official said.

Oh AU, who exactly are you arguing against? I never refuted this, is Bush really that important to you that anything approaching criticism, anything approaching the suggestion that his handling of the situation wasn't optimal requires attacks from you like some

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