9/11 NORAD tapes released...
POSTED BY: Dayve
UPDATED: Friday, August 4, 2006 23:15
VIEWED: 10691
PAGE 13 of 14
"But with all the other voices on an internet forum, I just make sure the divergent side gets represented."
No CTS - it goes further than that. But that would get into a 'what did you say when' posting that would take more time than I have.
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Soup- I like what you said about convergence and divergence- and I now understand my "usual" role in collective decision-making. It turns out I'm about 50/50. When people start narrowing down on a decision and it feels "too early" I do another intergalatic search for unthought factors or solutions. I stop when I see the same data "coming" and "going"* bc at that point I feel that we have a fairly comprehensive picture. (*I don't know how else to describe the process, but maybe you'll have a word for that too.)
Now I know why I sometimes drive people nuts.
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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nevermind
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wow. this is all... wow. ya know, i'm a good little recovering catholic school teacher. but about a year after 9/11 i began to get the heebie jeebies about the amount of re-direction and outright silence involving the whole thing. in the shrine of the tragedy, no one peeped.
the heebie jeebies turned into hives when afghanistan morphed into iraq, and then an "axis of evil" that jumped to asia. i was like... "ummm, hitler much?" there-were-no-WMD! why has bush not been called to the carpet for this? no one thinks it's outrageous that the president only appears to handpicked, planned friendly audiences? he gave himself the power to listen and label... the republicans do social security, flag burning, gay marriage... that little yapdog colter comes out with "godless." dems are silent silent silent about our numerous torture facilities around the globe the UN has demanded we close. whispering exit strategy and getting b*slapped. we support israel as they pick up a war on the other side of iran... i'm thinking to myself, "this is the start of ww3 and i'm watching it unfold."
i don't know boo about the science. antimason's ideas of months long preplanning to demolish the wtc make me giggle. but... no jets were scrambled to stop the planes. no agency stopped the pilots. the republicans squeaked in a fishy election when binladen was free, afghanistan was in shambles, and we'd started a second war under false pretenses based on lies.
i can *not* believe how complacent this country is. rue is saying (i'm reading between the lines) quit trying to find inconsistencies. all those details about 9/11 aside, if you put it together with everyyyyyything else, i might start to think "conspiracy."
i'm seeing a government increasingly secretive, power hungry, controlling, spewing religion and overstepping the constitution. it's all quite chilling. trace it back... oh, 9/11. it's their entire foundation. something so heinous it would shock the opposition into silence.
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For me it's all about boiling a whole issue down to the complete bedrock, if at all possible, just one question which, if answered truthfully and completely, would resolve the matter instantly.
Some folks fish with a net, some with a line and sinker...
I use a stick of dynamite and a pole net.
-Frem
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Okay. Multiple response smush post.
Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Very insightful. Yes, I am definitely a divergent thinker. Thank you!(I can't believe I forgot all about the convergence-divergence dichotomy.)
Wheeeee! Thanks and you're welcome. Nice to know I wasn't shooting too far in the dark on that one.
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Another way of looking at it is simplex optimization. By taking initial points too close together, you may end up at a local maximum rather than the true optimum.
I like that. Although it's rare, in my field, that the solution is a true optimum. It's more often the case there is a twinge of, "We could've made it better if we had more time or resources" even when you're wrapping up a project. We're often just shooting for "good enough."
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
There are times when I diverge - strongly - and from a vast, vast majority, or from authority or custom. ...
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Soup- I like what you said about convergence and divergence- and I now understand my "usual" role in collective decision-making. It turns out I'm about 50/50. ...
Thanks. Yeah. Both these raise the point that it's more of a continuum rather than a binary thing. Strong moderate mild either way mild moderate strong. To go a bit further, my personal belief is that it is as important to know your preference as to occasionally exercise outside of that preference. Which is a pointed reminder to myself. I'm pretty much anti proscriptive uses of profiling. I'm much more on the descriptive side of the debate where I see the information as valuable to inform and identify areas that might need work.
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
On this particular topic, I really have no strong inclination either way, so I don't think of myself as toady to authority or as a rebel - a converger or diverger. All I'd like is some even handed consideration of both pros and cons from people who portray themselves as open-minded.
I'm not sure I would categorize it as toady to authority = converger and rebel = diverger. I see it more as a person who is strongly divergent will most always be expanding. I've worked with people who are always asking, "Well what about this?" Early on there's a lot of value to those questions. But once the space starts to fill up the, "this" in the "Well what about this?" gets more and more unrealistic.
And thanks, HK, for serving as the alarm clock.
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Hey Mima-
We're not as far apart as this discusison might seem. Believe it or not, there are very few pro-Bush ppl in this thread. I think MOST of us think that Bush has planned SEVERAL conspiracies... the only thing we're discussing is "which ones?" and "how big?" 
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Hi Soupcatcher -
This has nothing to do with your posts - I'm just ranting -
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The whole 9/11, Afghanistan, Iraq thing ....
On 9/12 I was saying Bush was scared but Cheney was suspiciously out of sight, and later, that he remained so for a strangely long time.
When the Bush admin said they had proof it was bin Laden but couldn't say what it was, I withheld opinion. But when they accidentally let slip that, among the other things they were looking for in Afghanistan, evidence of bin Laden's involvement was primary, I was crying foul. If they actually had evidence they said they did to invade Afghanistan, why were they looking for it later?
When Bush segued from Afghanistan to Iraq, I was vocal - talk about bait and switch. During the drum-up to the Iraq invasion I was pointing out how Bush either lied straight out (Saddam kicked the UN out of Iraq and wouldn't let them back in) or implied lies (Saddam = 9/11). I was pointing out that Bush kept upping the ante every time Iraq complied with yet another timetable - to the point where the last DEMAND Bush made was that Hussein and cohorts had leave Iraq as a condition to avoid war (whatever happened to the UN resolution at that point?).
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I get extremely frustrated - even angry - at being addressed like a lackey because I don't discount every single thing that comes from an authoritative source. And I'm equally tired of being called a Bush-hater because I don’t agree with everything that comes out of the administration's 'mouth'. I'm tired of having to make the same damn arguments from both sides over and over again in different threads on different topics - look at the evidence equitably and see where it leads. I'm just very, very irked.
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RANT OVER
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I always thought convergent thinkers pulled in outside data to make a scientific analysis, converging their thoughts.
Divergent thinkers sort of work the other way, more imagination than science study, so you start with a 'seed' idea which diverges.
In this way I'd say Einstien was a divergent thinker, he almost lept to the end and then worked backwards to see if he was right for instance.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Did you guys watch Foxs Oreilly factor yesterday, when they discussed the new poll that came out which says 36% of americans believe the government was involved in a conspiracy re: 9/11? now think about this..almost 100 million Americans, according to this poll, share these sentiments...
so the anchor brings 2 guests on, a republican and democratic strategist, and not only do they avoid the arguements in our favor, or any discussion of the facts or details, but they didnt even discuss the poll! they called it wacky, loopy conspiracy nutjob antics, and then did a complete 180 and began talking about Israel and the "war on terror". this was supposed to be a complete segment!
so much for fair and balanced! its not as if this was the first time after all, that Fox, or some other agency has ommitted unique perspectives...
this is becoming incredibly disturbing to me, when we cant even get prominant news agencies to cover angles outside the official versions of events
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