Aiming for Armageddon
POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Sunday, August 6, 2006 22:42
VIEWED: 5926
PAGE 5 of 8
The Middle East is a disaster, but it is a disaster compounded by extremism on all sides of the conflict and serious blunders by those outside of the conflict. From the establishment of Israel to the beginning of Islamic terrorism by the Palestinians to Cold War machinations in the region the problems have been repeatedly complicated.
Imagine is Palestinians used non-violence instead of terrorism to gain their autonomy. Does anyone seriously doubt that if the Palestinians followed the example of Gandhi or King that the situation would not be far better, if not resolved, by today. Terrorism doesn't work and the stupidity of those who use it for social change is unquestionable. Unfortunately, terrorism is a valid tool for maneuvering Israel and the United States.
The problem is that Israel and the United States now negotiate with terrorists. By invading Afghanistan and Iraq the United States responded to and entered into a sort of negotiations with Al Qaeda. By attack Lebanon with such force, Israel has entered into a negotiation with Hezbollah and Iran.
Why provoke these super powers to attack? Obviously it turns the Middle East against them and strengthens radical Islamic factions. Israel will probably end up toppling the emerging democracy in Lebannon, just like the United States will eventually lose Iraq. Look at the United States we are more divided than ever, we are losing a generation of young men and women like we did in Vietnam, and our international influence is plummeting. Now if we had a better PR angle it wouldn't be so bad, but let's face it nothing we can do will improve the Israel and US image in the Middle East.
If you want a plan for the Middle East, it is easy don't make things worse. Israel needs to just fix its borders, preferably at the 1967 borders. The US needs to get out of Iraq and also Saudi Arabia.
Unfortunately, the US withdrawing from the Middle East could endanger the world's oil supply and the sad truth is that if that supply was seriously disrupted it would be catastrophic. Also so what if Israel sets its borders it is still seen as a defilement to the Arab world.
So what do we need to do? Find alternatives to oil, such as other fuel sources, including perhaps the bugbear of nuclear power. Of course, this is a double edged sword, if the world ended its oil dependency the economy of the Arab nations in the Middle East would collapse...thus foreign aid to improve and strengthen their economies is crucial.
To be honest, the situation is not that complicated, the problem is that the price of solving it would be high for all parties, and most parties would rather wait it out.
Now Bush can be blamed in large part for this situation, because the US is the only real superpower left. Bush supports the right of nations to defend themselves disproportionately, which is a naive and disastrous policy. The only good thing is that international law is being strengthened everyday of the Bush administration, so that is a real positive from the current administration.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Why not, given that the other side has made no secret of it's own genocidal intent.
Thanks for the quotes, I see one of them is only 7 years old
.I agree that both sides had a part in what is going on today. But what has Lebanon and Palestine done to facilitate the peace process? Israel pulled their settlements out of Gaza. There were few problems along the Israeli/Lebanese border until Hezbollah militants attacked an Israeli outpost.
I'm not sure if Israel is following a policy of imperialism or if they would simply be content to have a secure home nation.
Quote:
When one side shoots up the other in an American Made attack chopper, with American Made missles, firing American Made machine guns with American Made ammo at then, you can imagine that the other is gonna be somewhat pissed at us, again, no moral judgement but a simple, plain fact.
When one side shoots up the other with guns and bombs supplied by Syria and Iran, you can imagine how pissed off they will be at those Countries. It works both ways.
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I consider Hamas, The Likud Party, and just about every political force in the region, with the sole exception of Refuseniks, to be Terrorist in nature, because they are.
If, in the first few pages of the Likud Parties election platform it states that they will not rest until all Muslim's are dead, I will agree with you on this statement.
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Let's not shovel that Isreal can do no wrong bolus, both sides have done horrific things, and we MUST acknowledge and accept that to propose real solutions.
It was never my intention to 'shovel' that Israel can do no wrong. I agree that we must acknowledge ALL facts when discussing possible solutions.
De-lurking to stir stuff up.
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Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
The other point of spliting the aid like that is it would occur after the UN has taken responsibility for security of the country. As the UN controls the borders, that aid could not be easily spent on arms ( not right away ) but on infrastructure, healthcare , economic investment, etc
While your plan is both noble and possibly workable, will the Palestinians accept an occupying force in their Country? Or will this only provide more terrorism targets within their own borders?
Quote:
A democracy elected Hamas, if they had a reason to moderate somewhat they might just take it...
Such as working with the opposition Fatah party and starting to dismantle their military wing? I believe these two things would resume the flow of foreign aid and better facilitate the peace process.
De-lurking to stir stuff up.
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Quote:But Bush/Cheney have done the most to hurt and least to help the cause of peace over there..a few shots in their direction doesn't seem unwarranted...
Originally posted by Geezer:
It deserves serious discussion, not the "Bad, bad Bush" one-liners it seems to get from them.
My only suggestion is that we let 'em all slug it out, and keep away from it ourselves. Decrease the total number of lives lost that way. It's happening, and we ain't gonna stop it.
Well, we could always Neutron-nuke Bethlehem, and make it a 'suited-up tourist-only' city...no need for claims then...
What a mess Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
The other point of spliting the aid like that is it would occur after the UN has taken responsibility for security of the country. As the UN controls the borders, that aid could not be easily spent on arms ( not right away ) but on infrastructure, healthcare , economic investment, etc
While your plan is both noble and possibly workable, will the Palestinians accept an occupying force in their Country? Or will this only provide more terrorism targets within their own borders?Quote:
A democracy elected Hamas, if they had a reason to moderate somewhat they might just take it...
Such as working with the opposition Fatah party and starting to dismantle their military wing? I believe these two things would resume the flow of foreign aid and better facilitate the peace process.
De-lurking to stir stuff up.
I think, if the Palestians viewed the UN troops not as an occuping force, but deployed to keep Israel from running amuck it could work. The UN would have to be invited in... perhaps by referendum. Then the UN's main job would be to secure the borders and airspace of Palestine... Even if this involves engaging the Israelis.
The Palestians have too many factions... showing weakness invites the hardliners to come after you... and you can't just say dismantle your military wing, how many times have Israeli tanks rolled in ?
During the Irish peace process, the disarming of the IRA took place in the latter stages of the process... they buried their guns and waited to see if the process was for real, before they were fully committed.... and in this case, if they had of disarmed for the Oslo accords.... they would have been screwed. Trust is a non issue, but in there eyes, a stand down to rest and refit would be the least of the opportunity here. Especially if progress was made on the prisonner issues and the standard of life for the people started to get better.
" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "
The Killers
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html
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Bush refuses to press Israel for truce
By TERENCE HUNT, AP White House Correspondent
President Bush refused to press Israel for a cease-fire in Mideast violence Friday ... (Why am I not surprised?)
Bush called the leaders of Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan to explore ways to end three days of furious fighting between Israel and Hezbollah militants in Lebanon. Turning aside complaints that Israel is using excessive force, Bush rejected a cease-fire plea from Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Saniora.
Bush's firm support of Israel caused friction with allies as he seeks consensus against Iran and North Korea for their suspected nuclear weapons programs. The European Union has criticized Israel for using "disproportionate" force. From Russia to Spain, leaders voiced concern at the escalation of the conflict.
Russian President Vladimir Putin said, "No hostage-takings are acceptable ... but neither is the use of full-scale force in response to these, even if unlawful, actions. We will demand that all sides involved in the conflict immediately stop the bloodshed."
French President Jacques Chirac accused Israel of going too far. "One could ask if today there is not a sort of will to destroy Lebanon, its equipment, its roads, its communications," said Chirac, who has tried to patch relations with the U.S. after disagreements over the Iraq war.
Before traveling here from Rome, Italian Premier Romano Prodi said the spiral of violence was making a return to dialogue difficult. "We have regressed 20 years. If we go on like this, all efforts made in the past years will have been in vain," he said.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Russian President Vladimir Putin said, "No hostage-takings are acceptable ... but neither is the use of full-scale force in response to these, even if unlawful, actions. We will demand that all sides involved in the conflict immediately stop the bloodshed."
With his Government's past dealings with Chechneya, should he really be taking this stance?
De-lurking to stir stuff up.
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Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Russian President Vladimir Putin said, "No hostage-takings are acceptable ... but neither is the use of full-scale force in response to these, even if unlawful, actions. We will demand that all sides involved in the conflict immediately stop the bloodshed."
With his Government's past dealings with Chechneya, should he really be taking this stance?
De-lurking to stir stuff up.
I've made the same arguement about the US government denoucing terrorism
But nobody wants to go there....
" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "
The Killers
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
But Bush/Cheney have done the most to hurt and least to help the cause of peace over there..a few shots in their direction doesn't seem unwarranted...
I'd say Bush/Cheney are stuck in a 50+ year old US policy rut vis a vis Israel. I wish we as a nation could get over it. It would make things a whole lot simpler in the Middle-East. I'm not sure there is the popular support here in the US to make it happen.
I would guess that there is a good bit of back-channel communication from Washington to Tel Aviv, basically saying "What the hell were you thinking?". I wish it was public, but I'm not sure that's the majority stance.
Given the Israeli's laager mentality, and the Palistinians "let's make some more martyrs" mentality, I'm not sure there is a solution any more. If either the Palestinians had had enough sense to not elect a Hamas government, or Israel had had the balls to deal with them, this could have been avoided. I'm afraid they've decided to all go down together. I hope I'm wrong.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:It's about this time that I wished Bush was just a greedy businessman and not an Armageddonist.
BEIRUT, Lebanon (CNN) -- Israel's warplanes bombed Beirut's international airport and its navy blockaded Lebanon's ports in a sharp escalation of a military campaign Thursday
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Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.
Bush? WTF does this have to do w/ Bush?
roflmao!!
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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