Aiming for Armageddon
POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Sunday, August 6, 2006 22:42
VIEWED: 5926
PAGE 4 of 8
Slick - so we have to discuss your specified topics for it to count. Wow. You really are overboard on that superiority crap.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Hi Gino,
My starting position on the Israel/ Palestine question:
Take US military aid out of Israel since they can't be trusted with it. Make Israel comply with the UN's border mandates. Promise swift and terrible retribution to any surrounding state that attacks Israel.
What do you think?
My opinion is based on several points
1) The US can only be trusted to take a pro Israel stance ( while this may or may not be completely true, from a Palestian viewpoint, it would be so )
2) Both sides need security
3) Equality will equal peace. Equality in economic and military strengths. Any negotiation will fail if one side have all the power.
4) The PA is incapable as a government to jump in and provide such services to control their own country.
So what needs to be accomplished is to determine where the border lies
I would suggest the 1967 border as a starting point.
Now we need to secure this border equally. Simply arming the PA would not be a realistic option, there are too many factions and divided loyalitys to throw money and arms at such a problem... in addition to the PA being unable to provide basic services.
What I would suggest is a UN force, excluding the US who doesn't have the troops to participate anyway.
If a two divison force from European countrys, Japan, India, Canada, and South American could be put together with the mission of A) Preventing Israeli incursions, B) Policing the border area and back up the Palestian police, and C) Slowly build a PA military, officer training at Sandhurst, RMC, etc D) Provide customs, etc
If this works, border incidents should drop to nothing... A review could be held every year, as to whether this force is still needed.
An independant review of prisoners held by Israel, and any found not guilty ordered released to the PA, without a visa to return to Israel is that is Israels wish
Any Israeli settler in occupied lands, can stay... as a citizen of Palestine. No forced relocation, just a firm understanding.
Economic equality. The aid the US has given Israel too much clout in the area. A UN resolution balancing that aid, say if you give 50 million to Israel an equal amount must go to Palestine.
With defence and security responsibiltys removed temporarly from the PA, they can focus any aid on economic development, etc. Perhaps the EU can establish a trade agreement for some exports to benefit investment.
As the conditions and economy inproves in Palestine, I believe the minor fact that people would begin to have something to lose, would help moderate much of the population... jobs, money, etc equals hope
the final conflict would be Jerusalem. Both sides have claims, and holy sites etc withing its boundries. If Jerusalem was declared an open city under the control of the UN that would resolve this question. If the UN moved its offices from New York to Jerusalem, it would give them a major stake on the success of this plan, plus free up a considerable sum of cash, as I believe expenses in Jerusalem to be lower.
So to sum it up
The Border has to be secure both ways
Economic / Military aid has to be balanced
perhaps Lebanon could be stabilized in a similar fashion
The trick is you would need the PA to invite the UN to take over security and defence... Mind you recent Israeli action would cause me to take any help offered...
" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "
The Killers
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html
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Quote:
It would be over in weeks at most...
Sounds familiar. Seems like I've heard that before, but I just can't place where... ;)
Remember, Kiddies, you can't spell "QUAGMIRE" without "I", "R", "A", & "Q"!
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Hey Ginobiffaroni,
That was quite detailed. It will take some thought on my part, though I did notice we both started out with the 1967 border.
To add: my more evil side says - go ahead Israel, build that big damn wall, as long as it's on the 1967 border. It just might keep out the random suicide bomber.
But if you think with it you can go on pretending you don't have to deal with the sea of a few hundred million non-Jews you live in ... remember, the BDW is not going to keep out missiles.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Hey Ginobiffaroni,
That was quite detailed. It will take some thought on my part, though I did notice we both started out with the 1967 border.
To add: my more evil side says - go ahead Israel, build that big damn wall, as long as it's on the 1967 border. It just might keep out the random suicide bomber.
But if you think with it you can go on pretending you don't have to deal with the sea of a few hundred million non-Jews you live in ... remember, the BDW is not going to keep out missiles.
The biggest problem is that the same economic oppression that would keep the Palestians from destroying Israel is the same thing that keeps them wanting to destroy Israel.
Thats why I think if the short to mid term security of Palestine could be guaranteed by a third party ( whose interest would be to stop attacks in either direction ) that gap could be closed.
Israel wouldn't like this plan, as they lose much of the control they enjoy now
the US wouldn't like it because they are taken out of the loop for the most part and are limited in what they are allowed to do in the area.
But for the same reasons I think it might actually work...
I remember reading that postwar Germany was allowed to have local police first, then border guards, then an army... the same progression might allow the Palestians to develop a military independant of the factional infighting they face today.
Along with foreign training and support
" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "
The Killers
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html
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Simple, pull all foreign aid to the region, including the Izzie's.
The only thing *worse* than a war, is the situation between Isreal and Palestine right now, and so without artificial support of the status quo, eventually they will either kill each other, or so destroy themselves in trying that they will be *unable* to further pursue hostilities.
At which point, if they have any sense at all, THEY would appeal to the UN to come in stabilize the region.
There's a merit to leaving the hell alone.
Oh, and Geeze ? it's almost a shock to hear someone finally admit our support of Isreal is a bit overboard, especially in light of their insane responses to comparatively-minor provocations - part of it is that Congress funnels huge amounts of money to them, and then AIPAC funnels it back into those members of Congress's campaign funds, which is an issue that damned well SHOULD be investigated thoroughly.
I would be interested in hearing your opinion, stance, and advisements on the matter, at least from that political spectrum, you too "Hero", disagreement notwithstanding, I wanna know your position, and wanna hear a rational explaination instead of blaming 'liberals' and fingerpointing at 'bush-bashers'.
State your positions, stance, and advisements for the record, please, so we can have a rational discussion instead of he-said-she-said fingerpointing petty personal drama.
I know a rational discourse isn't likely, given the sensitivity of the topic - but it's worth a try, at least.
-Frem
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Promise swift and terrible retribution to any surrounding state that attacks Israel.
Such as bombing roads and bridges and the airport in Lebanon for their attack against Israel? So it's not okay for Israel to 'exact' swift and terrible retribution against Lebanon but if it was a UN force that's somehow different? Please elaborate.
De-lurking to stir stuff up.
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Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Economic equality. The aid the US has given Israel too much clout in the area. A UN resolution balancing that aid, say if you give 50 million to Israel an equal amount must go to Palestine.
So you are saying that equal aid should be given to Palestine where a known terrorist group is the party in power? Money for Hamas to further their goal of Jewish genocide.
De-lurking to stir stuff up.
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Quote:
Money for Hamas to further their goal of Jewish genocide.
Why not, given that the other side has made no secret of it's own genocidal intent.
"We should prepare to go over to the offensive. Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai." David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff.
They're beasts walking on two legs." Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts". New Statesman, 25 June 1982.
"When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.
"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.
"We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours." Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces - Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.
"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them." Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.
Again, neither side is innocent.
Blowing up stuff and wiping out civvies is terrorism no matter who does it, in essence, BOTH sides are terrorists, and the primary reason one side hates us is that we're financing the other - that's not whatever a moral judgement either, that's a plain fact.
When one side shoots up the other in an American Made attack chopper, with American Made missles, firing American Made machine guns with American Made ammo at then, you can imagine that the other is gonna be somewhat pissed at us, again, no moral judgement but a simple, plain fact.
We gave The Shah a buncha stuff to shoot up Iraq with, and when the Iranians threw him out and replaced him with Khomeni, we gave Iraq (Saddam Hussien, no less!) a buncha stuff to shoot up Iran with - one could almost say that the USA is one of the primary enablers of terrorism, although indirectly.
I consider Hamas, The Likud Party, and just about every political force in the region, with the sole exception of Refuseniks, to be Terrorist in nature, because they are.
Let's not shovel that Isreal can do no wrong bolus, both sides have done horrific things, and we MUST acknowledge and accept that to propose real solutions.
-Frem
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The other point of spliting the aid like that is it would occur after the UN has taken responsibility for security of the country. As the UN controls the borders, that aid could not be easily spent on arms ( not right away ) but on infrastructure, healthcare , economic investment, etc
A democracy elected Hamas, if they had a reason to moderate somewhat they might just take it... Outlawing them, putting prices on their heads and excluding a regional force from the political process would only cause what is going on in Afganistan... Picking sides ( the American way of doing things ) doesn't work, and that is why the Americans have to be excluded from this process.
" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "
The Killers
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html
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